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Doc’s Interview – Carlton and Damon Decoded

By docarzt,

  Filed under: Lost News, Lost Spoilers
  Comments: 20

dandc.jpgThe interview with Damon and Carlton has been published at ugo, and you can read it in its entirety here.  At first blush it may not seem overly revealing, but there are some very cool learnings in it worth pondering.  If you don’t appreciate lost spoilers, you might want to forgo drinking of the goodness that lurks below:

These are random observations, not necessarily in the order of the questions, but things I think are very worth talking about:

The moment they knew they would need time travel – 
When Adam and Eve were introduced.  That is an arbitrary confirmation of the theory that Adam and Eve are, at the very least, someone we know.

Oceanic 6 Clarification –
The identity of the other two survivors Jack mentioned in court is unimportant.  This is either a plot hole, or an important clue.  The only way to interpret this without it being a plot hole is that the oceanic 6 returned to civilization under their own power and were not picked up by anyone;  otherwise, those two bodies would need to be retrieved and buried at some point.  The main implication:  it appears to the outside world that the O6 made it back on their own.

Game Changers Present and Beyond – Not only does it sound like Episode 8 is a game changer (Damon: “…the last scene in the show we would certainly define as a cliff hanger
and really nicely platforms what episode nine is going to be…”) but Damon and Carlton’s later comments definitely indicate that we have not seen the narrative structure change for the last time.

Even Damon and Carlton Aren’t Canon – By my estimation, Damon gave the best ‘bottom line’ on decoding the show to date:  ignore everything but the show.  Too many people, imho, have pulled obscure quotes from the press in support of a theory, or with the intent of shooting down somebody else’s musings.  It can finally be said definitively that when Damon and Carlton, or anyone else for that matter, are in the interview setting – be it in the future or historically – their on the fly commentary is NOT canon or even canon altering.  So if JJ said it wasn’t about time travel during season one, it doesn’t matter;  only the show speaks the truth.  leave the politics to the politicians.  To quote Damon:

The reality is, anything that Carlton and I say, or anyone involved
with the show says, that is all part of the politicking that sort of
surrounds the show. We like the idea of being answerable to the show,
that is to say if we do something the fans don’t like we can come
forward and apologize for it and explain what the thought process was
for executing that story line. Or, vice versa, if we do something
people really like we get to sort of pull that forward and explain, for
instance, that we weren’t able to do the flash forward part of the
story until they promised us an end to the show, and this is how we
were able to end the show, and this is why we are doing three more
seasons, and so on. The fans are owed those explanations. But, in a lot
of ways it is like J.K. Rowling revealing that Dumbledore was gay.
She’s saying this, and it is part of her talking about the books, but
all that matters at the end of the day is the books. So, watching the
show Lost, you watch it and the data is there for you to form
whatever theories you have, and you can’t factor in anything that even
the creators or actors are saying about the show outside of the show,
because at the end of the day the show will be processed in six DVD box
sets. It will be completely irrelevant as to whether we confirmed or
denied or speculated.

Amen brother.

From TVFrenzy:

  • Samfishercell

    Great interview Doc, sounds like Season 4 is going to be pretty crazy.

    More than anything, I’m getting excited for the show to be done. It will be neat to view the entire story as a whole, and also to find out how everything evolved behind the scenes.

    For example, I’ve always wondered about the Jack. We know Jack was initially supposed to die in the pilot…but his character seems like such a huge part of the overall plot now, I often wonder if his story arcs were destined for someone else. I also wonder about Ben, as Henry Gale was originally supposed to be a small part. Was the character of Ben in the creator’s mind before “Henry” appeared, or did he evolve from him?

  • dm

    yo, that stuff about the two extra survivors being a “plot hole” is kind of a silly claim. It’s pretty obvious that the Oceanic 6 + 2 was just a story concocted to make the trial of surviving the crash seem more believable. There isn’t any kind of conspiracy, plot hole, or clue. It is unimportant outside the fact that the public perception of the Oceanic 6s story is different from what actually happened.

  • daniel is lost

    Great interview doc.

    I think it was a very clever move by Damon and Carlton to say their comments are not definitive canon, by doing this they can easily side step comments they made in the first season about the show not involving time travel. But I still feel we can obviously take some of the comments they make in podcasts etc. as canon.

    It’s really interesting to speculate who the Adam and Eve could now be considering time travel opens up the possibility of it being absolutely any character.

    Can’t wait for the next potential game changer in episode 8!

  • icyone

    I think the mention of the other 2 is mostly a clue to the viewers as to how the rescue went down – there was no surprise in the court room when Jack mentioned the details.

    JACK: Only eight of us survived the crash. We landed in the water. I was hurt, pretty badly. In fact, if it weren’t for her, I would have never made it to the shore. She took care of me. She took care of all of us. She–she gave us first aid, water, found food, made shelter. She tried to save the other two, but they didn’t–

    If this is the “official” story the O6 are giving, I think its almost certain that the freighter doesn’t return them to the mainland. There are simply too many people who would know the truth and Abbadon would get to them eventually.

    My vision of events is that between now and the rescue of the O6, they are taken to another nearby island and someone else conveniently rescues them. From the new rescuers perspective, Jack’s story would be totally convincing and this is where the lie starts. The real island is never discovered, because doing so would obviously expose it to exploration.

  • DocArzt

    I don’t get that perspective DM. Authorities allowing two dead bodies to lay on an island somewhere, assuming they had families etc, is sort of inconceivable. The point is, some how the society of the shows universe is going to deal with it. Obviously, they have accepted that the o6’s island cannot be found.

  • Levi

    Authorities allowing two dead bodies to lay on an island somewhere, assuming they had families etc, is sort of inconceivable.

    That’s quite an assumption, though. Boone and Shannon have family, certainly, and Ana-Lucia’s police friends would want her body returned, I’m sure. But what about other survivors who don’t really have family (not family that is desperate for closure)? Maybe Locke?

    Or what if the bodies aren’t recoverable? We’ve already seen one funeral pyre. Who’s to say the O6 didn’t tell authorities they burned the other two bodies? Or sent them off on a makeshift raft for burial at sea?

    And icyone’s suggestion that the O6 are rescued off another island isn’t a terrible thought, either. It seems like there are plenty of possible explanations as to why no one would be going after the two bodies.

  • Brett G

    What episode and season were the “Adam and Eve” characters shown in? I haven’t missed one episode but I can’t recall these 2 characters…

  • milo

    I agree with DM, it’s not a plot hole at all. While I’d like to know who they said the other two were for simply out of curiosity, it seems completely arbitrary. They could have named two that died, they could have named two still alive on the island. I don’t think they necessarily would have been able to or even tried to find the bodies. Especially if they said the two dead drowned and they couldn’t recover the bodies, or eaten by sharks or other animals, or died as they were making a journey across the island and they had to leave the bodies behind and had no idea how to find them. Or that they were worried about disease and burned the bodies. Or put them on rafts and sent them out to see. There are plenty of possibilities that easily avoid it being a plot hole.

    Doc, thanks for asking whether the finale is two hours. Now we know, but again their answer is vague enough that we don’t really know how many weeks of shows remain. Are the two hours May 22 and 29 or 15 and 22? Since he says the season ends May 22, I suspect it’s actually 12 episodes with the last one as a two parter – still 13 hours/weeks of episodes total.

  • milo

    Adam and Eve were found in the fifth or sixth episode of the series.

  • Levi

    milo, Damon says “they have a two hour Grey’s [Anatomy] finale which going to run from 8 to 10, and that is only going to leave an hour for us.” That makes it sound, to me at least, that if they only have an hour that night then they have to fit an hour into another night. Episode 9 airs April 24, so Ep10 is May 1, Ep11 is May 8, Ep12 is May 15 and Ep13 is May 22. In the past, they’ve always considered two-hour episodes as just one episode, so it seems to me that the second half of Ep13 will be May 29 (I think his comment about the “end of the season” is the end of the 07-08 TV season in general, not Lost’s Season 4).

  • dm

    The identity of the two survivors is completely irrelevant. Pursuing this question is a useless endeavor that only distracts from more important questions.

    The lie is for the benefit of the viewer because it contradicts his/her knowledge of the crash as experienced through the show. We know 80 or so people survived the crash, the plane did not crash into the ocean, Kate wasn’t the hero, etc. This gives us a couple big questions:
    1) What happened to all the survivors on the Island? Why did only six leave?
    2) Why are they lying?

    We have to assume the civil society into which the 06 return have accepted and “dealt with” the consequences of this story. Three-hundred something people were killed in the crash, so what is two more in the face of such destruction? To the public, it is not the dead that become the focus, but those who are alive. It’s a much more sensational story. If the show were to pursue the identity of two arbitrary faceless survivors who exist only in a lie, then we risk a story as useless as the meaning of jack’s tattoos.

    The show has to have a narrow focus. Narrative parsimony is essential to create a cohesive and well paced story (not to mention it is very limited in what it can discuss since it must be discussed within the parameters of alloted episodes. There’s no room for meandering through every aspect introduced in the story– only the most fruitful or interesting can be pursued).

    Not everything on the show is a clue. It’s foolish to even view the series as a conventional mystery that has clues parsed throughout the narrative. People are looking too hard for the key to decode the show instead of just taking it for what it is: character studies in a sci-fi context.

  • “Triggering the Grand Irrationality?”

    Cowering in an obscure corner of the food pyramid

    somewhere between the tofu and the unflavored yogurt

    contemplating the juxtaposition of intangibles for all you are worth…..

  • milo

    I’m still dying to know who the two fake survivor/deaths were, now even that much more so since last night’s episode and the probably fake death of Jin.

    Maybe it’s irrelevant. But for someone trying to piece it all together, it’s still something I want to know. I’ll bet we find out eventually, it would be very odd to never hear one of the characters tell the full fake story.

  • lmz27

    Forgive me if I myself am getting this wrong, but I have to step in here and help the interpretation of Doc’s original post:

    dm, i think you missed Doc Arzt’s original point. Doc Arzt is saying that, based on his interview, Damon and Carlton are asserting that the identity of the “two other survivors” are NOT important, just like you are saying. The question Doc is asking is this: Ok, now that we have CONFIRMED that those identities are not important via the producers own mouths, what may that fact tell us about the rescue of the Oceanic 6? So, Doc goes onto ponder one of two things: either it tells us NOTHING about the rescue (plothole), or it gives us a clue. Doc is erring on the side of there not being any plotholes (bc he trusts the producers’ brilliance) so he is trying to figure out what the LACK OF IMPORTANCE OF THE IDENTITIES +2 TELLS US ABOUT THE RESCUE OF THE OCEANIC 6. What Doc comes up with, then, includes the following: that the identities are unimportant because there are no bodies to account for — meaning that “they” (whoever “they” is) did NOT make up the “8” survivors story because two dead bodies people came back with the 6 survivors, as many viewers originally theorized. (This inference is important, because many people thought that they made up the story in order to account for some dead bodies of characters we knew, like Claire or JIn.) So, Doc’s reasoning is that we can now use Damon and Carlton’s claim of the identities not being important as confirmation that there were no dead bodies brought back with the 6. Secondly, Doc is taking this inference one step further, hypothesizing that the 6 do not get rescued by some external entity but make it back to the world of their own doing. This in turn means that, to the public, the island is probably understood to be unreachable and unfindable.
    Anyway, I just wanted to point out that you were arguing against something that Doc actually was way beyond — in fact, his STARTING point for his observation was that Damon and Carlton confirm, in this interview, that the two identities of the other survivors are not important and will never come into play in the show. On the other hand, if had Damon and Carlton said, oh yes, the “two survivors” are important , then it would have meant that the story about the 8 was made up to be in harmony with specific events that transpired during the rescue (even though we as viewers know the story of the eight survivors is a lie — it still has to make sense for the PUBLIC once the survivors get back!!! Doc’s point is that whatever lie is told to the public, it’s gotta be one that can’t be disproved.)

  • DocArzt

    Right on lmz27. DM, and Milo… if the the characters were rescued from another island and the identity of those two were deemed unimportant, that would be a plot hole. Because it would raise questions as to why authorities had no retrieved the bodies, etc. However, I think of LOST as being plot-hole free; whenever possible. So, in that case, the unimportance is evidence that the o6 made it back to civilization without any assist.

  • DocArzt

    yes, but see milo… your desire = plot hole, because you assume they are persons of interest. You’re sort of nullifying your own argument about plot holes because your reaction is a prime example of someone agonizing over a plot hole. When a writer chooses to dismiss an event critical to the continuation of the plot, the result is a plot hole. However, what Damon is telling us is that there is no plot hole because those two survivors, whoever they are NOT, do not actually exist. They were merely added to make the O6’s own fiction more believable. If Damon and Carlton said “okay, it was rose and bernard” it would still have no impact on the story because they would have only been two characters in the o6 fiction as told by Jack et al.

  • milo

    “your desire = plot hole”

    I’m not sure what you mean by that. I want to know simply because this show is spinning a yarn and I want to hear all the interesting bits. That’s definitely a bit that interests me, whether it’s important or meaningless and arbitrary or whatever. I get what Darlton mean, and I get that it isn’t important. I don’t expect them to be persons of interest at all.

    But I still want to know.

    What *does* seem like it might be a plot hole is if Aaron turns out to be in the O6 (which I now believe is the case), then how does that fit with Jack’s story that 8 survived the crash but two died later? If Aaron counts, that means 6 from the crash plus aaron makes seven – wouldn’t three have to have died to end up with six counting aaron?

  • lmz27

    I’ve been thinking that too… The “story” makes it sound like Kate pulled eight human beings out of the water, and two died. If the public is buying into that story, and he IS counted as one of the Oceanic 6, that would have to mean that Aaron was one of those human beings Kate pulled out of the water. THAT would imply that Aaron was on the plane. How would they pull that one off???
    If the public is buying into that story and Aaron ISN’T counted as an O6er, then the question becomes, what’s Aaron’s story, according to the Oceanic lie?

    Possibility 1. He came off the island with the 6, but the media does not count him in the Oceanic 6 label because he was born after the crash. For this possibility to work, several problems have to be dealt with. First, some people on these blogs have made the argument: “why call them the 06, then? The media dubbing a group of six-survivors-plus-baby the “Oceanic Six” is illogical.” Ok, but I’d rather have that “plothole” than some other huge one. Also, for this possibility to work, Aaron would have to be known to be born on the island to Kate. There are two ways this problem is solved. One, Kate is pregnant when arrested by the Marshall. Two, she conceives on island. For either of these options, there needs to be a time discrepancy between the world and the island. So, perhaps, to the rest of the world, the Losties have been “missing” for longer than it appears to the rest of the world. (Kinda like “Your perception of how long your friends have been gone isn’t necessarily how long your friends have actually been gone…” but in reverse). This way, the story kinda makes sense because it gives Kate time to say EITHER that she (and Jack?) conceived and delivered a child on-island (so they’ve appeared to have been gone ten months at least) or that she was a couple months pregnant at the time of her arrest (so they’ve appeared to have been gone maybe six or seven months.) In this case scenario, Aaron is NOT an O6er, but was “rescued” with the other 6.

    Possibility 2. That the 6 “rescue” themselves, like Doc infers above, and hide Aaron somehow, and Kate claims that, while she did conceive on island, she has him after leaving the island. This would involve a mini-conspiracy to fake a pregnancy and a delivery. Weird and kinda soap-opera-y.

    Possibility 3. That the 6 rescue themselves and hide Aaron somehow, so that Kate can claim she had the baby before the plane crash but was keeping him a secret while on the run. Then, post rescue, she “retrieves” him and announces to the world that she the whole time while she was trapped on the island, she had a baby boy that was being taken care of in secret while she was deciding what to do about turning herself into the Marshall. Fictional baby fictionally taken care of by whom, you ask? I dunno… Ray Mullens, the one armed farmer who can be bought off for any price?) This one is far fetched and also very soap opera-y.

    I can’t think of any other possibilities, however, that can make the “Oceanic lie” that Jack told on the stand work Aaron in. To sum up:
    Either the public thinks he was one of the 8 in the water (meaning he was on the plane?), or that he was born on the island to Kate, or that he was born after rescue to Kate, or that he was born before plane crash to Kate.
    What are some things that I’m missing??? Doc, milo, etc— help me plug the plotholes!!!!!

  • milo

    Good post. Unfortunately, I’m not sure how to make it work.

    I rule out that they said Aaron was on the plane or that he was born before and kept in hiding. The only possibilities that make sense to me are that they said he was born on the island to Kate (assuming a time warp of some sort fixes the missing time (Sun has a similar but less severe time issue assuming she said that Jin got her pregnant before the plane crashed). Or that they say that Claire had the baby on the island and Kate took care of him after Claire died, although I find the possibility that they’d let a criminal on trial adopt a baby incredibly unlikely.

    I think Kate just says she had the baby on the island.

    But I can’t figure out how Jack’s story works with that, I hope at some point it is explained and we get to hear the whole story, including who the extra two were supposed to be.

  • lmz27

    thnx milo. i love these little logic problems that the show presents us with. 🙂 excited for thursday…