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LOST 5.12 – Dead Is Dead – Keep on Redeeming Me Baby…

By docarzt,

  Filed under: Lost News
  Comments: 65

blinus3Benjamin Linus has a soft side.  Actually, two soft sides: kids and bunnies.  We learned tonight that Ben’s murderous tendencies are easily disarmed by the sight of a toddler.

One MIGHT say that the LOST writer’s room is trying to inch closer and closer to the redemption line with Ben Linus.  I think that would be a huge mistake.  None-the-less, some of Mr. Linus’s vulnerabilities were quite revealing.  Revealing enough to forgive genocide?  Perhaps not.

“Dead is Dead” was a weaveworld of Ben Linus deceptions.  For the first time we got to see Ben operate without the average guy facade.  We saw the incredulous ‘who me?’ mask thrown on as needed. We saw that every move he makes is a manipulation.  He at first seems to be turning on Locke, we later learn he is merely flushing out the weapons.  In fact, the only thing Ben was consistent on links directly to the chink in his armor: children.

Ben went through with his judgment without turning the situation on its ear – his agony over the death of his daughter and his role in the situation was real, just as his willingness – nay, need – to be judged.  Perhaps most interesting was the parallel between Ben’s commitment to facing his ‘own’ kind of music, to his inability to keep his commitment to his own need for revenge.  Killing Penny seemed a cold and apt act in the wake of Widmore’s volition of rule-breaking.

The site of Penny’s child, though, was a turning point for Ben – connected through the needlepoint of the episode.  His task, in some regards, was no different than the mission to kill Danielle.  He arrived, and at the site of the child changed the rules of the game himself – disobeying his ‘leader’ for a higher moral ground.  In both the seizing of Alex and the sparing of Penny, Ben disobeys the Widmore nature – he doesn’t seem to have the backbone for this kind of evil.

All of this revives the question that continues to spin on its own momentum: who is the bad guy between these two?  “Dead is Dead” is win one for the Linus fans of the world.  Widmore is far more cold blooded than Ben, at least when it comes to children.  However, a note of caution to Ben-ites and LOST writers as well; true redemption will elude Ben Linus always, regardless of how popular he becomes.  Make all of the Darth Vader comparisons you like.

Sure, even though Anakin stood by while a whole planet was blow’d up real good, and we still cheered when he threw the emperor over the rail.  We were also always aware of this greater evil that seemed to pulling his strings, not to mention an overarching mythology that included an equal opportunity corruptor known as the dark-side of the force.  Ben linus has neither of these plot conveniences on stand-by to save him from the horrors of gassing the men and women of the Dharma Initiative, or any of the many smaller sociopathic displays Ben has snickered through.

Finding the human side of a psychopath is always the most fascinating part of stories that choose to go there, as long as they do not lead blindly to a redemption that fails to bring the villain to any kind of justice.  It’s an argument that makes returning to the question of who is the good guy/bad guy between Widmore/Linus all that much more volatile.  Personally, I’ll stick to “worse of two evils” line, and hope that at the end of the day the ghosts of New Otherton are waiting to drag a sneering Ben Linus to his just desserts.

From TVFrenzy:

  • JimmyJon

    Excellent read, good analysis of Ben, especially after tonight’s episode.

    Although the beginning of the article I don’t think you should attribute the genocide of the DI to Linus, later on in your article you attribute to Widmore. I don’t necessarily know if you intended that, but Overall the blame lies in Widmore, Ben couldn’t do anything, and he was an Other after all.

    • docarzt

      At best, Ben was complicit. Lots of Nazi’s were hung for being complicit.

      • malakai

        Well we don’t know the whole story of “the purge” yet but according to Patchie the DI initated the purge but the Others managed to turn it around and ended up purging them.

        There is a fine line between war and slaughter but if the Others were going for one swift knockout blow to end the conflict it would be more akin to Hiroshima than a concentration camp.

        • docarzt

          Some good points. Operating from what we know: Ben’s a cold blooded killer who seemed 100% complicit in the purge. This is sort of the root of my complaint, we can write him into a happy space with the purge, but then what is the end result? We’ve retroactively disarmed hundreds of hours of story-telling in the process. We won’t need to watch the series again from the beginning, because we’ll know it all gets revised in the final 16 episodes or so. No, they have to finish what they started. There are definitely ‘good’ ways to re-configure Ben as a hero, but at the expense of what? If they do it, it has to be solid and it has to jive with what they’ve show us.

          I know this is open to interpretation, but remember originally Ben didn’t gas his father in the van. The gas was released by station. They added the canister in post because they wanted it clear that Ben was hands on with this thing. Having the gas just come on the wind was too ambiguous.

          I don’t disagree with you out-of-hand, though. There are inventive ways to pull it off. But until I see that in execution, I’m sticking with what I know. Which, unfortunately for me, includes the insinuation that the writers may indeed be thinking of a character turn. Heck, as I pointed out… it worked for Darth Vader.

          • RandomZombie

            We still don’t know WHY the purge occurred.
            What is the center of this battle of “good” verses “evil?” If it’s the safety of the island, Ben could still come out as (more or less) a good guy. If the Dharma Initiative posed a threat to the island, and were not willing to change whatever it was they were doing to cause this risk or harm, then killing them off might have been the only way to ensure the island’s safety.

            We are still viewing the events of the purge completely out of context. What ended the truce? Why were such drastic measures taken?
            Of course, Ben did insist on being there when his father died. I think we can attribute that to one heck of a grudge. That’s not an excuse, just a reason.

            Something went wrong down the line, of course, the monster told us that much in this episode, but it is possible that Ben’s intentions and actions were for the greater good.

          • cpjon446

            It only worked for Vader as a denouement (unless you’re referring to the prequels, which, dude, they don’t count). To reinvent the character this late in the game, but clearly before any sort of climax to the story is indeed a risky and frankly scary proposition.

            I don’t need Ben’s redemption to buy into his character’s flaws, heck his flaws are so deeply embedded in what makes him tick that he would cease to be anything more than Locke’s errand boy.

            Watching episodes of that would be akin to watching The Shield’s Vic Mackey in his FBI days. We want the bad guy to pay for his sins, but we don’t want to be burdened with following along with them as they suffer through such mundane consequences.

            No, I want Ben to remain manipulative and vindictive as ever. We have plenty of other characters whose redemption will be welcomed, if only to bring closure to their stories.

            Chris in Fort Worth

          • marc

            by the way i think you’re off target on the soft spot. The soft spot is not for the children, but for mothers. Danielle was gonna die until ben saw she was a mother. Penny was gona die until ben saw she was a mother. This makes much more sense as far as his over all storyline goes and his mother dying at birth ie growing up without a mother.

          • Jenn

            I’m not sure that’s exactly it either, Marc. Ben didn’t kill Danielle, but Alex still grew up without a mother.

          • maeve

            They put the insert of Ben opening the gas canister to show he was complicit in the murder of his father not the DI. The wanted it made more clear that Ben had an active role in his father’s death and not a passive one.

            Ben did not commit genocide. The Purge was not genocide; it was mass murder. I wish people would quit using emotionally packed words like that incorrectly.

            The DI was essentially an invading army in khaki jumpusits. They had no respect for the culture already living on the island and built on top or near the native’s ancient structures in order to conduct experiments. They came close to destroying one of those structures (the wall surrounding the pocket of exotic matter) and with it the world. Dharma was ready to unleash unknown forces in order to conduct experiments involving properties they knew little about.

            It is not murder to fight off invaders. Dharma was at war with the natives and those who died in the Purge were the causalities of a war they themselves started. There were a number of DI members who also passively took part in the Purge because they understood the immorality of what they were doing.

            Is Ben a cold blooded killer if he trying to defend his country from an invasion? Doesn’t that make him a patriot? And yes it became his country when, as a child, two members of the DI handed him over to the natives and allowed them to physically and psychologically change him into a native. Jacob is the leader of the island and he determines who lives and dies on his island not Ann Arbor.

            This is how our perception of Ben will change. We will learn what is at stake on the island and be confronted with our prejudices. Our point of view will be turned upside down so good will be bad and wrong will be right. It’s all just a matter of perspective anyway isn’t it?

      • LuLuLaredo

        I’m not a history buff, but I do think you’re incorrect about “Lot’s of Nazi’s were hung for being complicit.” A quick Google search seems to put the grand total of Nazi war criminals executed at approximately 500. Compare that number to the ballpark figure of 6 million and ask yourself how many Nazis were murderers and how many were complicit? Each and every one of those criminals had a trial to determine whether he or she was directly responsible, not merely “complicit.”

        I suppose all’s fair in Lost and War, but when you’re drawing comparisons to actual historical genocides I feel it’s generally a good idea to at least attempt to get your facts straight. Also, while I’m being “nitpicky,” your grammar is definitely incorrect. I’d have that apostrophe key checked out.

        • docarzt

          Oh you just had to reveal yourself as a grammar Nazi and deflate your entire point. 😉

          As for the historical upbraiding, we’re not really going to argue over our definitions of “lots” are we? Where did I say “A large percentage of the Nazi party”? Some people will do anything to be disagreeable.

          Did you run across the Nuremberg trials in your ‘research’? Plenty of cabinet level level Nazi party members were sentenced to death who were in the chain of command. And every one of the bastards deserved it. Same as Ben would deserve it for his own role in genocide, regardless of who was pulling the shots. Then again, you do understand that I’m talking about the Nazis that were complicit in that sentence right? Granted I wrote it way past my bed-time, I think it’s pretty clear who I’m talking about: the Nazis who were in the chain of command. Don’t be a troll.

          • Henry Holland

            You don’t really respond well to criticism, no matter how tiny, do you?

  • Heidi

    But wouldn’t the island have stopped the purge of DHARMA if it did not want it to occur? I am very fuzzy on when the island is in charge and when leaders are in charge of the island.

    • docarzt

      Perhaps a better question is “Does the island possess a morally accountable point of view?” One of the lynchpins of LOST’s dramatic structure is “the greater good.” We see heroes we care about fall or sacrifice themselves over this very transcendent concept. The island’s capacity for setting morality aside may exceed anything our human point of view would find acceptable.

  • the_professor

    Reliving his failures with Alex – after seeing his merciful beginning with her – was a kind of punishment. Being told to follow John Locke is also a punishment. The Island let him live, and that sometimes is worse than death. I think Ben’s known guilt his whole life – beginning with his mother’s death – and that’s what separates him from Widmore.

    BTW, I loved the Wizard of Oz feel to the images replayed in Smokey’s voluminous interior. Kinda retro.

  • Crann

    I definitely agree with you here: I don’t think either of these men is particularly benevolent. I think we’re going to have to choose the best of two devils before the end of the series.

    I hope that Ben dies a bad man, as well. Don’t get me wrong — his quest for redemption has been amusing, especially when he breaks the rules in the process. Without doubt, this subplot has been one of the most interesting of the past two seasons.

    • DarthBubba

      Wowever, having John Locke as the third candidate could definately chage the outcome quite a bit. 😉

  • asdf13

    Ben is my favorite character. the scenes with Caesar are the reason why. He manages to gain an ally with the purposes of dumping that ally to get a bigger and more important ally (wanting locke to think he saved his life).

    That is the brilliance of the character. I remember a blog on this site discussing why we want to make a character balck or white, good or evil. It’s not that simple. Ben lives in the color grey.

    That said, I hope Ben doesn’t become Locke’s bitch. There’s no worse plot device then that for a character like Ben. Whatever happens, I hope they treat a great character right.

  • Erikire

    I hate Ben… a little less… for now.

    • Dolce

      I feel the same way. Exactly.

      • Landry B.

        Which is the same reason he is one of, if not the, best characters on the show….loved this episode..

  • jamesepowell

    Ben’s redemption may come like Gollum’s: his death may save the world.

    We may also learn that the purge was a counter-attack. Maybe for the Others/Hostiles it was kill or be killed. The DI people, other than our own 815ers, have quite a bit of hatred toward the native people. That they call them Hostiles says a lot. But consider also the star-chamber decision to kill Sayid, the statements of Phil & Radzinsky, and the cold-blooded attitude of Oldham. The DI reached a decision to eliminate the Hostiles, built the Tempest station and was on the verge of putting into action. Ben, probably, tells the Hostiles and they pre-empt the attack. Would Ben be so bad under these circumstances?

    As for the future of the plot, it will be odd if he follows Locke, but I don’t see a credible path for him to do otherwise. He fears Smokey, he worships and fears the Island, and he was given a direct order, right out of the mouth of one of the two humans he ever loved. (So far as we know. I am not ready to characterize Ben’s feelings for Juliet as love.)

  • ebster

    The thing that has interested me most about Ben throughout the series is not weither-or-not his evil deeds are justified…its that he BELIEVES that his deeds are justified. No matter how horrific a deed, Ben always had a valid purpose (at least in his own eyes) behind everthing he has done and so, in some ways, has never NEEDED redemption before. In the purge he sided with the hostiles, (i really don’t get the whole the nazi association) because he was one of them.

    This episode really showed him feeling guilty and accountable for something he’d done that was wrong. It showed him ‘owning’ his problem, agknowledgeing that his actions had no justification, and actively seeking to ‘make it right’.

    Dang, I love Ben but I almost wish that he could have died in this episode. He really felt the need for his redeption, and I think that would have made a great end to a great character.

    The monster could have killed him as a punishment but it didn’t, because this was his redeption: He did wrong and he will have to live with that guilt for the rest of his life.

  • Jade

    “We were also always aware of this greater evil that seemed to pulling his strings, not to mention an overarching mythology that included an equal opportunity corruptor known as the dark-side of the force.”

    Except we _do_ have those plot conveniences, Doc. First with Rousseau’s team, and now with Illana, those that the Island visits are definitely ‘changed’. And if we are to Forgive John Locke for being Fate’s Bitch on his road to heroic redemption, so to must Fate be given a pass for the road that it’s dragged Ben Linus down.

    That gives you your ‘equal opportunity corrupter’, and the greater force pulling at his strings; both painted in broad strokes this season.

    Does Ben Linus deserve redemption? That remains to be seen, just as Fate and Free Will have yet to have their final says in this play.

    • imfromthepast

      Did I miss Ilana going into the Temple? When did the Island ‘visit’ Ilana?

    • docarzt

      You may be right, partially. Illana was not “changed” though, she was planted. Whatever is in that big ass anvil flight case will make that clear. More of Widmore’s trolls? Ben’s? Somebody else entirely?

      Back to your point. You are right, but is it right enough? That is the question.

      The thing with Ben being ‘changed’ by the temple, does that really let him off the hook though? What I had proposed there before is that perhaps the changes give the others some enhanced perception that elevates their moral sense above that of mortal men, but is that enough to make Ben’s acts more palatable? On that question, I’m unconvinced.

      Saying Ben is redeemable because he acts in the greater good in ways that simply would not be relatable to you and me isn’t going to make them relatable for you and me – plus it robs the series of one of it’s most subtle and effective devices: Fate, Destiny, and the greater good. The greater good has come up over and over again as something for us to agonize over. Charlie, for instance.

      I guess the klaxons go off for me on the major point of my argument: don’t revise his history, because it would mean large sections of the series are misrepresented. Ie, Dharma plans to exterminate the human race so the others have no choice but to take them out. That works on one level, however it upsets the applecart on a whole lot of exposition. A redemption for Ben has to work taking everything that they have led us to believe as canon. If you do too much re-framing of the past you wind up looking like you sentimentally shoe-horned a solution into the story. Not that I think they will do this, but they surprise us sometimes.

      I will acknowledge though that there are several ways, including smokey infection, that you could redeem Ben. But are they good ways?

  • hyperRevue

    RE: Ben killing Locke.

    Ben told Locke that he kept him from committing suicide because some vital information would have died with him. So, he’s talking about Eloise Hawking? I have to hope Ben is just lying here because I refuse to believe that Ben wasn’t aware of Eloise Hawking before Locke mentioned her.

    • JimmyJon

      Ben couldn’t continue Locke’s mission without the info about how to get the Oceanic 6 that Locke got from Richard back on the island during the time-hops.

      Ben probably was aware of her, but there’s no way he could have known she would play a part, he’s not psychic.

    • Zonker

      For some time now I’ve been flogging the theory that the vital information Locke gave was related to Jinn still being alive, not the Hawking reveal. I say this based on the way Emerson played the death scene in Life & Death of Jeremy Bentham. Last night kept that interpretation in play. Ben did not specify exactly which piece of information he needed.

      So I still think it was the surprise related to Jinn being alive that somehow made Ben believe that destiny could in fact be altered in some ways (despite The Rules).

      • hyperRevue

        I like that better.

        Hawking seems too important, too central a figure with the Others, for Ben not to know her and her role.

  • icyone

    Compare Ben’s judgment to Eko’s judgment. If this is Smokey’s purpose, the contrast is very telling.

    • DHARMA Agent

      Exactly. I feel like this episode made Mr. Eko’s hastily terminated storyarc and The Cost of Living far more meaningful.

  • dksrox

    All along, Ben has claimed to be one of the “good guys” – You don’t need to be redeemed if you’re one of the good guys and your actions have been righteous, and we still don’t know why he believes he’s one of the good guys (if you accept that he’s not lying). Would he have been one of the “bad guys” if he had killed Penny? Most certainly.
    When nature throws a tornado at a trailer park, its not nature being malevolent, its nature being nature. When a soldier throws a grenade into a cave full of terrorists, he’s a good guy, but when he throws a grenade in a school full of children, he’s a (really) bad guy…
    I really don’t see this turning into a redemption of Ben…because, to date, he’s got nothing to be redeemed for…

    • Jughead

      The only mistake Ben made was putting himself before his daughter and that’s the only thing he needs redemption for. The ep. tells us that he recognizes this which moves him out of the completely evil camp anyway

      • DezziesOtherLifeBrotha

        I drew a different interpretation from this episode. I saw it as he put the island before his daughter and that was what saved him in smoky’s eyes…

  • Ice

    What about the timeline? We see Ben as part of the DI and killing his father, yet we now know that Ben Grew up as an Other. So does he one day decide to go back to DI and they accept him? I’m a little confused on this point…Great Work Doc

    • JimmyJon

      He did not grow up as an Other, we see him meet Widmore after he is healed then a flash to later on when he takes Alex, that’s all. It’s not to far out there he lived a double life until the purge when he could finally be with his people full time.

      • Dorkusbob

        But the question is then… Who took care of the baby while Ben played DI? I’d think Horace would sh*t smoke if Ben brought a baby along out of nowhere. “I found it in the woods, can I keep it?”

        • DarthBubba

          I’m guessing that we had the timeline of the Purge wrong. It seems that Ben was a full time Other at the point when he took Alex. Otherwise, why didn’t anyone in DHARMA notice and do anything about the French people showing up in the first place? It never made sense to me that the Purge happened in the early nineties while the French showed up in the late eighties. Now why the Others hadn’t moved into the barracks yet is anyone’s guess.

          • icyone

            If Alex was 16 in 2004 (canon) then she was born in 1988. The Purge happened in 1992 (according to Lostpedia, but I don’t remember the math involved).

            DI probably never saw the French because they were only monitoring their own little area of the world (inside the fence) and Danielle murdered her crew pretty quickly.

            Ben was probably moonlighting as an Other while also being with Dharma during this time, and had been ordered to kill Danielle because she had disturbed the Temple.

            There’s no indication Ben was a full-time Other when he took Alex – the timeline as we knew it Tuesday still makes sense.

          • icyone

            Ah, deadHorace told Locke that he had been dead for 12 years. This conversation took place in 2004, placing the Purge in 1992.

          • DHARMA Agent

            Precisely — the conversation with the vision of Horace in Cabin Fever, as well as Ben and Jack’s conversation in Through The Looking Glass.

            Additionally, Ben is shown clearly younger than he was in The Man Behind The Curtain. Ben Linus as an Undercover Other is really the only viable explanation…but that leaves the question of who’s taking care of Alex while he’s driving VWs for the DI. Richard, perhaps?

          • DarthBubba

            Didn’t remember the Horace conversation’s dates, sorry. Of course with time moving differently on the island, there could still be some discrepencies. . .
            Love the phrase: “Undercover Other”!

        • Landry B.

          Ok…so here are my thoughts:

          1. Ben comes to the island with Roger after mother Emily’s death.
          2. Ben gets abused by his father for…well for nothing.
          3. Ben starts taking sandwiches (minus-mustard) to Sayid. Sayid then escapes with help from the little bugger and then repays the favor by shooting him in chest.
          4. Ben is taken into the temple by Richard.
          5. Ben is visited by Widmore when he awakes. Widmore tells him HE CAN’T STAY THERE NOW, but that he would always be “one” of the others…so he returns to the DI…
          6. He grows up…he festers, he stays mad at dear ole dad, until one day (for some reason) he is part of the purge…
          7. Afterwards, he joins the others and one day is sent by Widmore to kill a French woman and low and behold, she has a daughter…so he takes Alex…
          8. Then, some time later as Alex appears to be 6ish on the swing, he plays a large role in banishing Widmore…a time when they are already living in DI compound (aka, New Otherton)

          So that brings clears the whole Widmore-Ben-Purge timeline up right?

          • Landry B.

            Also, at some point (not sure when) wasn’t it said that Danielle’s crew landed in the mid-nineties? Like 1994?

          • Dolce

            It was like’87 or ’88. I think ’88.

      • Heidi

        Ethan was born in 1977 and he looks about 10 or 11 when Ben goes to kidnap Alex. And we think the purge did not happen yet. So, when did Ethan start living with the Others? That explains how he survived the Purge but not how Danielle survives.

  • Ben

    “Sight” of little Charlie, not “site.”

    • Ice

      ok so maybe he didn’t grow up an other, but we don’t see him returned to teh DI…I guess that is for another episode? What is more plausible, that he left until the purge then came back, or lived a “double life” as an other? I think Horace and the boys would have noticed the mysterious kid who set sayid free routinely dissapearing into the jungle for hours at a time…

      • icyone

        It looks like he was doing his work at night. And he had knowledge of the cameras and their locations, if not an ally on the inside to prevent being seen.

        Horace and the DI are clearly not as organized as once thought – they’re paranoid and easily distracted/occupied. Horace in particular seems to think the Others are savages and most likely underestimates their intellect/strategic skills.

  • flaknitter01

    Ben’s actions come directly from the Hebrew prayer “Mah Tovu”, and the episode aired on the first night of Passover – I’m posting the translation in the 5.12 forum…

  • Chuck

    Just wanted to point out that we DO NOT KNOW who ordered the Purge so saying Ben is responsible for the genocide is inaccurate…..so far.

    • icyone

      Ben was definitely complicit. He knew when it was going to take place, he knew how it was going to happen, he personally killed his father, and then he returned to the village to meet Richard and the others.

      He may not have ordered it, but he certainly took part.

      • Chuck

        True, but “taking part” is not the same as being the Leader responsible for ordering the Purge.

        • icyone

          Which is irrelevant, Ben may or may not have made the order but is still responsible for his part in the “genocide” same as all the Others who took part.

          There’s a difference between “responsible for ordering it” (not being discussed here) and “responsible for performing it” (which is being discussed here).

          • Chuck

            Then you are only talking about committing homicide, which almost every main character in LOST has done. So why pick on Ben?

  • Harvey

    Doc, interesting, but a few mistakes. We do not know who truly ordered the Purge, it could have been Widmore for all we know (and most likely was since Ben/Widmore were in Dharmaville AFTER the Purge).

    Also, you say that Ben has no one above him pulling strings…um, Jacob? “Everyone answers to someone, John” (see the Man Behind the Curtain). We know Jacob is real, we know his word usurps ALL authority, and we know Ben tried to appease Jacob by turning the Donkey Wheel (“I hope your happy now Jacob”). So how could you say Ben doesn’t have an some other force at least attempting to pull his strings? After all, everything he has done he did for the Island, otherwise Smokey would have Mr. Eko-ed his butt. He DOES have the plot “conveniences” for redemption, and I hope he finds it.

    • icyone

      Doc didn’t say Ben ordered the Purge. But Ben certainly took an active role in it. Also Jacob is not pulling Ben’s strings the way that the Dark Side corrupted Anakin and the Emperor took advantage. If necessary, look up the phrase “pulling someone’s strings” and you’ll see the difference.

      Ben willingly does all of these things and did not have to be manipulated to do so, not even by Jacob.

      • Harvey

        Ben claims to go whats best for the Island, obviously there is truth to it since Smokey did not kill him, hence his motives are not selfish hence someone/thing is pulling his strings (perhaps the isalnd itself). Neither of us can truly comment on whether Jacob is pulling his strings, but you cannot say he ISN’T, there’s just no proof.

  • Jangras

    My theory: Ilana is superhot.

  • elephant in the room

    My favorite part of the episode was just after Ben summoned smokey and he stood outside and told Sun to go inside because whatever was coming out of the jungle he had no control and out comes Locke. It’s killing Ben that he can’t control or manipulate Locke anymore. I think Locke needs Ben though and that is why the island let him break the rules and come back; according to Christian he was never supposed to turn that wheel and leave the island anyway, it was always John’s job. Just as we saw in the scene when Ben shot Caesar, John needs the cold blooded killer that Ben is. And let’s face it, Ben wouldn’t be that cold blooded killer if it wasn’t for Locke’s friends in the D.I. and Ben’s Juliet. Speaking of that, does anyone else think it to be weird that Ben didn’t know that any of Sun’s friends were in the Dharma Initiative. How did he not recognize them? He has to go back to Dharmaville after he heals and how would he not remember any of them. Maybe in the coming episodes he will wake up with memories of Sawyer, Jack, Kate and the gang just as Des woke up with new memories. So I understand that whatever happened, happened but if that is so, how come the O6 were never supposed to leave the island? Did Christian ever say they weren’t supposed to leave, or was that just a good ol’ Ben manipulation?

    • elephant in the room

      I brought up the O6 not supposed to leave the Island because I was thinking that if they didn’t leave then they would have never appeared in the 70’s w/ the DI. But then I realized that they weren’t supposed to leave because they were always in the DI and just would have been there with Sawyer and the gang 3 years earlier. Sorry for that last lame question there.

    • Jenn

      I think one thing you’re forgetting is that Ben lies. As far as I’m concerned, we don’t know for sure that Ben does or does not remember our Losties being in the DI.