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Is John Locke Gone Forever?

By docarzt,

  Filed under: Lost Theories
  Comments: 161

fb6cd86d-635e-40e5-bcc4-c980a086fda3widecThis question seems to be cause for a lot of debate lately, particularly since Terry O’Quinn himself weighed in with his take on the situation.  Terry believes that Locke is gone forever, dead is dead.  My good friend Erased Slate gave us an artful tour of the writing on the wall with his piece right here and made as solid a case as anyone that Locke was gonzo.  Well, color me incredulous – I’m just not ready to let go of John Locke; not only do I think that Locke will return, I think his return has already been portented much in the same way that hints of anti-Locke were dropped throughout the season.

Before I get into any of the evidence,  let’s just look at this logically.  Leaving popular characters’ lives in precarious situations is part and parcel of the LOST finale experience.  In season one it was Jin, Sawyer, Michael, and Walt.  In season two it was Desmond, Mr. Eko, and Locke.  You get the picture.  This season we have a lot of lives at risk: in addition to being parked a few yards away from a nuke, Sayid is bleeding to death.  Juliet was at ground zero for said bomb; heck everybody in that general vicinity is more or less screwed without the deft writing chops of Darlton to rescue them in some fascinating way.

The main reason people should be faithful is that Daniel’s plan will likely work, altering the future for all characters – including Locke.  For it to fail would mean that the story is over for Jack, Hurley, Jin, Juliet, Kate, Sawyer, and Sayid; very unlikely.  Now as for the aim of Daniel’s plan, we all know that had nothing to do with Oceanic 815 landing in Los Angeles.  The changes to history would begin the same day the bomb went off, in 1977, and would fan out from there.  Dharma could potentially continue their research, minus a station, and the butterfly effect would likely disrupt timelines so sginificantly that Oceanic 815 may never even take place as we know it.  As for Daniel’s true purpose in changing history – saving Charlotte – that plan may succeed.

If the finale taught us one thing, though, it is that the particulars of the castaways lives are not important in Jacob’s game.  They were selected to play on his chessboard of an island for a reason and altering their histories won’t change that.  All of them were chosen long before they got on Oceanic 815.  A big temporal reset at this point doesn’t free them from the game, only the circumstances that have shaped their journey up until this point – including death.

One piece of evidence, albeit very tenuous, is Walt’s prophecy – we’ve yet to see this come true.  Could Walt have been seeing events from a separate time-line?  From a story perspective, it could be very interesting to have Locke somehow ressurrected after anti-Locke has done so much damage to his reputation.  As for Terry O’Quinn continuing in the role of Jacob’s nemesis: why?  Now that man number 2 has presumably succeeded in his mission to kill Jacob, does he even have the need to maintain Locke’s visage?

For me, Locke’s death-death is par for the course in LOST-ville, and something we are expected to debate until season six premieres next season, but my gut tells me the bald guru will yet have a role in the island’s final saga.

[poll id=”27″]


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From TVFrenzy:

  • JimD099

    People…you need to go to grief counseling. He’s gone for good. Let’s get past this.

    • Mack

      Thank you for taking the time to participate. Who do you think Kate should be with, Jack or Sawyer?

      • Aztek18

        haha nice

      • JimDD

        That’s a good question. I’ll have to get back to you on that.

      • al

        i think kate should end up being alone, she doesn’t deserve either of them.

        slut.

        • JimDD

          Take that back. Kate is NOT a slut!!!!!

    • stonersteve

      if you strike me down ill shall become more powerful than you can posibly imagine

    • Jackson

      No he is not he’s coming back I tell you!!

      • JimDD

        Nope….sorry. John is DEAD….and DEAD IS DEAD. TPTB said so. 🙂

    • johnathan

      Why he’s gone for good? Lost without the real John Locke isn’t Lost!

    • Sebastion

      I disagree with Locke’s permenant death simply based on the effects this would have on a macroscopic John Locke story, and the way stories generally work. Locke’s story is ultimately an series of rise and fall in grandeur/righteousness: a man in all respects a complete loser lands on an island where he is able to earn the respect of others, do what he always wanted, and gain meaning for his life, then he loses his ability to walk due to the trebuche shard and is blamed for Boone’s death, then discovers the hatch and unlocks secrets of the island, then loses leg motility again as well as hope finally sinking to a crazed state causing the destruction of the Swan, then saving Echo and beginning a journey to learn who the Others are, who Jacob is, weaken Ben, and resolve his problems with his father… then he gets shot. He is about to shoot himself in the head when suddenly Walt stops him so he can make a last ditch effort to stop Whitmore. This fails, and Locke descends into a dictoral role (no loss in power but in righteousness) but eventually helps in the moving of the island, and saves the lives of all people on the island by making a great sacrifice and leaving. He then reaches his lowest low, he is about to kill himself again but his old rival, Ben, beats him to it, and (seeing as the new Locke is not truly Locke) Locke’s story essentially ends. This may have been long but it serves to show my point that John Lockes highs and lows have been getting more and more extreme throughout the series to keep them interesting. It is no wonder they eventually killed him off, anything less and the low point would seem small and uninteresting and by stringing out the period of time before his return, the writers kill the “he’ll be back in ten minutes” attitude one develops after watching Michaele repeatedly get up after usually fatal injuries, Naomi crawl away after a knife to the back, and any number of death trips. This simply explains why they went to this extent if they did not intend to kill Locke completely; the hint that he will return lies in an incomplete story. Locke has been built up to be a messianic figure, recieving one of the best and most diverse stories of all, and the idea of this coming to an end that does not reflect that (in a simple strangling in an apartment in L.A.) would not serve a story well. Stories build to something, and do not recant a long sequence of events and build up a character only to end rather inconsequently. Locke’s story lends itself to a much greater finale which could easily be seen as a return from death like Christ himself (perhaps involving the pool at the temple), fulfilling his messianic niche, and playing a pivotal role in the ending of Lost. In short, story-telling convention will not allow this character to die, and John Locke awaits Revelations to end the final battle between good and evil on The Island.

  • icy_one

    Hurley and Sayid didn’t meet Jacob until after the O6 were rescued.

  • Wintermute

    Long live Locke.

  • mpl

    Locke was one of the people Jacob touched. He’ll be back along with the rest of them in whatever form the reboot takes. If you haven’t seen Doc Jensen’s excellent article from today, go check it out.

    • Adam

      Can you give me a link? I can’t find which one you are talking about…and I would love to read it.

      On-Topic: Locke is coming back…Locke was one of the ones Jacob touched in his flashbacks, Jacob is still not done with him.

  • diablo

    that is a great pic of locke, anyone know where to get a larger version, maybe wallpaper??

  • You make an assumption that Walt’s dream hasn’t happened yet.
    He was most likely dreaming of Not-Locke being in danger from Caesar. He said he was wearing a suit (which he was).

    Also, whatever happened happened nothing is changed. I seriously doubt they’re going to erase the entire series as if it was pointless. My best guess is the bright light was them time travelling again, and the bomb never goes off. If the bomb went off the island would be destroyed, and since the island is ‘sentient’ it probably would do whatever it could to stop its destruction.

    • Benny

      Wow, I got there just too late.

      On a side note, the script presented explicitly said the bomb went off. That is also the direction that the exec took when explaining the finale to them. This could be misdirection, but the explosion sound dictated at the end (CC) can be further evidence of such.

      • Andy Capp

        I have to agree with this. Everything about the show indicated the bomb went off. The sound was not that of a time flash, or anything else we have heard in the past.

        Plus, what is the point of having Juliet crack a rock against the bomb and cut to white in the first place? It doesn’t make sense dramatically to show this if nothing indeed happened.

        The black on white Lost logo communicates that something has changed. I don’t think the presentation will be to being next season with flight 815 landing — Damon and Carlton are more creative than that — but they must have achieved something by setting off the bomb.

        I’m not saying it won’t go this way next season, but it will be a cheat if it does.

    • Aztek18

      what was Walt’s dream again? Do you have an episode? I know he was special, but I can’t remember what his “prophecy” was. He definitely seemed in tune with the island of course, but, Docarzt, I’ll ask you since you wrote the article, are you referring to something more specific?

      • In The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham he told Locke he had a dream that he was back on the island with a suit and there were people who wanted to hurt him. Just prior to this scene we saw “Locke” on the island surrounded by 316 people who didn’t trust him.

    • jayh

      I think Juliet and the bomb time traveled back to the WAY past when they went down the hole, and the bomb went off and destroyed the statue…

      • Hmmm… I like this theory. I have not heard it before.

        • richie

          bomb = tidal mave = black rock swept onto island?

  • Benny

    Walt’s vision was an image of Locke, he doesn’t necessarily know whether or not it was someone else. He only knows this body to be Locke.

    He could very well have that vision because of his connection with the island (and Jacob). In which sense he has a vision of the nemesis as Locke, in a suit on a beach, surrounded by Ilana’s group who want him dead. He only interprets the vision to actually mean Locke.

    • RandomZombie

      The only person. Locke or not, wearing a suit is the real (dead) John Locke.
      Even when Caesar and the other three men were trying to stop Ben and not-Locke from taking the boat, not-Locke was not wearing a suit. And you could hardly describe the situation as “surrounded by people who want to hurt him.”

      • Rwolf

        Actually when we first see Locke again he is sitting by the campfire with the hooded cloak on and he was wearing a suit, presumably the one that he was wearing while in the casket. It was until he started out venturing that he changed his clothes, remember when on the dock he put his dress shoes into his back pack……

        • RandomZombie

          When he was wearing the suit, no one was trying to hurt him. They were suspicious of him, but there was no sense of danger.

          • Benny

            When Ben and ‘Locke’ leave on the outrigger, he’s wearing a suit and Ilana is nearby with the crate (containing Locke’s body). She KNOWS then what is happening and wants ‘Locke’ dead. She might have known for some time, we don’t know how long it’s been since she has found the body.

            More so, we don’t know the exact details of Walt’s vision. And given that it’s a vision, the details he mentions may not necessarily be as accurate.

            Point is, we may find out next season whether the vision related to the Hydra beach or the main island beach; whether they related to Locke himself or his impersonator.

        • Mack

          When Caesar came to confront John he was wearing a dress shirt and slacks but not the complete suit. A suit requires a jacket and possibly a tie. Nit Picking I know but if we are being technical about it Locke was not wearing a suit.

          • Benny

            But what does Walt call a suit?
            Check and Mate! Just kidding.

          • RandomZombie

            Thank you, sir.

  • Charlie’s Ghost

    incident aka bomb aka COURSE CORRECTION? Lost 6, The Return of Locke.

  • walt’s dreeam/prophecy?? i’m missing something here…

    • In “The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham” when Locke goes to meet with Walt. Walt tells him he had a dream where he was wearing a suit and there were people standing around him, wanting to hurt him if I remember correctly.

      • wonderful.. thx a lot, just went to lostpedia to see more details.
        yeah, i agree that the dream hasn’t happened yet..

  • Well, why have Miles and Hurley if you don’t have dead people?
    If Locke doesn’t physically return, which I don’t think he will…
    …see if he doesn’t tell Hugo how to save everyone!

    • richie

      isnt that exactly why miles was brought to the island?

      • lockeheart

        thats exactly what im thinkin. I posted a theory about it in the john locke article the other day. There has to be something to the extra-ordinary circumstances of jacobs visit to hurley. He talked to him, mentioned his name, touched him, told him how to get back to the island and left him a present. the 77 losties will flash to the 316 crash and the dead john locke will tell hurley how to change destiny and save jacob.

  • Bookhouse Boy

    I disagree with people who think the plane will never crash because it would seem to take away from the story of llana and her gang on the island. I believe the incident sends the ’77 Losties back to the present with the rest.

    • RandomZombie

      I’m with you. To undo everything that’s happened so far would be terrible. Why not just begin the series from the rewrite of history, and have the characters learn of the alternate past as time goes on?
      We’ve learned to much about these characters, and they’ve changed so much because of what’s happened to them on the island, that to undo it now would be a waste of five seasons.

      But Locke will be back.

      • docarzt

        I think you can have your cake, and eat it to. Change time AND retain the memory of everything that went down.

        • Benny

          a la “Back to the Future”. Dito!

        • Mack

          This is probably what is going to happen. Jacob touching certain characters has some significant.

        • RandomZombie

          I could live with that. My main concern is that the powers that be don’t undo what’s been done. If we see Jack get off the plane and his first words are “we have to go back…” It’s a bit convoluted, but it could work.

          We only have seventeen hours left. If the plain doesn’t crash, do we have time for a satisfactory finish?

          • DarthBubba

            What if the plane crashes and the bomb went off. . .the 77 Losties’ souls then could be transported ala Desmond to their present bodies at the same moment we saw at the beginning of “Pilot”. This time, however, the ones that Jacob touched retain their memories. Jack could start his redemption by saving sucked-into-the-engine-guy and go from there. Ethan would be caught, the Tailies could be saved from their horror, the Others confronted right away, etc.

            Locke was touched so perhaps he’d remember everything up until he was killed by Ben, presumably, but I’d love it if he had some memories via Esau taking his form so that he could end up saving Jacob and even showing Ben that its Esau (notLocke) in the cabin.

          • No matter what happens, it’s going to be so awesome! No hype or anything…

  • Maybe the bomb and the energy pocket somehow neutralize each other. If the bomb actually went off the island is going to be blasted and uninhabitable for a long, long time. Daniel’s plan was to neutralize the energy, not totally destroy the island and kill everyone on it.

  • Bikeyme

    I’m glad to see so many others who ARE as devoted to Locke’s character as I am. To get rid of Locke and not allow him to redeem himself would be a great way to alienate a huge fan base. Let’s hope Darlton is just messing with our heads, AGAIN, and Locke 1.0 will be back next season.

  • CorrosionX

    Call me crazy, but I think Jack’s eye opening in the Season 6 teaser means the bomb works, but they go back to September 21st 2004, the day of the plane crash. Because Jacob chose them to come to the Island, there’s nothing they can do about it, course-correction brings them all to the Island anyways.

    I think they’ll wake up on the day of the plane crash, everybody will be alive, they will all remember what happened the first time, and they’ll try to not fall into the same traps the second time around.

    • Benny

      I believe that, if they retain the memories, it would suggest they happen to be in 2007. Jack’s memory has spanned his life up to 2007. I think that, altering the past would bring them back to their corresponding year, hence 2007.

      This would actually put them in sync with the current events on the island.

    • This could be where the writers are going, but I don’t see how it could work in practicality. I don’t think it makes sense that time will have changed and all the Losties will be off-island. That’s not much of a show. Putting them back on the beach in 2004 with a chance to do whatever they have to do the right way, Course Correction, basically, would make more sense from a story standpoint. However, that would involve a lot of casting logistics. Would they really be able to bring back Boone, Shannon, Michael, Walt (who’s much noticeably older), Eko, Charlie, etc.? I severely doubt it.

      • lockeheart

        i agree that starting from the beginning of the 815 crash, even if they had memories, would be terrible and a casting nightmare. I think it makes more sense if the losties flashed to the wreckage of 316. Afterall that is where most of them got flashed out of. This would mirror season one while at the same time let the audiance see course correction/changing destiny in action. Also if you think about it jack was wearing a black suit while on 316, almost identical to the one he was wearing on 815. This would set up the eye opening, running into the wreckage scenaro, then we would find out oops this is actually 316 not 815. The losties will have a chance to save destiny by saving jacob.

        • DonJuan

          Yes!
          Flashing back to 316 seems like the most logical approach for season 6.
          Not only can everyone save Jacob, but they could potentially SAVE LOCKE!

          • Although, I don’t see how the Losties flashing back to 316 helps Locke. He was already dead!

          • redondofuentes

            that could be jacob’s turn to resurrect locke… then we’ll have two not-lockes, one white one black

        • Very possible!

        • While I still have doubts about the Losties having actually changed time, this is the scenario that makes the most sense if they did. Jacob’s death is likely the one thing that they would really need to change at this point, and perhaps that’s what Jacob had set up all of this up for.

  • Benny

    If Locke is revealed completely dead and feel alienated by the show/can’t accept it, this suggests that the devotion is only to a character and your anticipation for him.

    What makes a fan base is their attachment to the SHOW and the STORY, the good and the bad; the sensational and the unacceptable. If, by the end of it all, people will still resent the writers or the death was for death’s sake, then let them have it.

    But Locke’s death, if it is in fact final, surely has a meaning in the overall story and, if fans do not accept the story because of this aspect, then let them write their own show! You have to take it all in, after all, it is the writers’ story to take where they want!

    • Iwantmykidneyback

      Locke-fan fail!

    • Mack

      You are making a lot of assumptions about the motivations and feelings of Locke fans that you can’t prove.

  • spinflip

    Well, Locke has already come back. Anti-Jacob or however you’d like to call him isn’t just pretending to be Locke. He has Locke’s memories and experiences (remember him talking about first meeting Ben in the hatch), he just additionally has a hidden agenda, so to speak. So Locke has returned, but he’s kinda evil now.

    Actually, although I also like Locke’s character very much, Locke’s initial resurrection and the Jesus references didn’t sit well with me. Death isn’t something to be taken that easily, it would be cheating, storywise.

    • Gripp

      Yeah or, what if Locke is alive, but just possessed or tainted at the moment of resurrection?

    • Dana

      I wasn’t thrilled with the Locke resurrection either. Darlton had said for years that once you were dead your were dead. For them to change that for one character damaged the credibility of the story for me. Then when Ben declared “Dead is dead”, I really wondered how they could continue with resurrected Locke. So, I actually like what they have done here, but I’m probably in the minority (along with my family and friends) of those who haven’t liked Locke since the end of season 2. I really think this new Locke could add so many new layers to the story. I’m looking forward to O’Quinn playing this new character next year; so I’m sorry to say, in this case, I do hope dead is dead.

      • Iwantmykidneyback

        how can you not like Locke? The ultimate underdog who knew the island was special since the moment he arrived. He’s been building up to something amazing only to have it cut down at the knees. If Locke comes back then I absolutely love what they did with him in the finale. If not then it’s depriving me of the epic ending this epic man deserves.

        • Dana

          I started to dislike Locke when he started making decisions for everyone else (same reason I have disliked Jack in the past). I like consensus builders, at least someone who discusses things. When Locke decided he no longer thought there was value in pushing the button at the Swan, I was fine with that. But when he insisted that no one be allowed to push it, regardless of what they (e.g., Eko) wanted to do and risked everyone because of it, I started to dislike him. He followed that with deciding that no one should be allowed to leave the island; so he sabotaged every attempt (blowing up the sub, blowing up the Flame, killing Naomi, etc.) Anyway, I guess I don’t like people making decisions for me. I would want to be thought enough of (I’m not a child) to at least be consulted. I like the idea of democracy over dictatorship. I also didn’t like the fact that “the man who would be king” of the island was so gullible, especially if he was the one deciding my fate. Most people I know feel the same way, but I guess birds of a feather flock together.

  • Gripp

    I also don’t think Locke is dead, but it seems to me that Walt’s dream may have happened when they dumped Locke’s suited corpse out on the beach.

    We still don’t know the true intentions of Ilana’s group, or the Others, for that matter. Who’s to say that they weren’t all standing around his body, flipped out and angry that they’d been conned? Maybe Walt felt that vibe, or maybe its just Walt seeing John on the ground and assuming that he was about to be hurt by the others/316s?

  • Mags

    You say that “the main reason people should be faithful is that Daniel’s plan will likely work, altering the future for all characters – including Locke. For it to fail would mean that the story is over for Jack, Hurley, Jin, Juliet, Kate, Sawyer, and Sayid; very unlikely.”

    I don’t think that was Daniel’s plan.

    I think that Daniel really thought something so preposterous would happen by detonating Jughead. I’m thinking Jughead was more akin to Doc. Brown’s “1.21 Gigawatts” that would be necessary to send the crew back to the future. I think he made up this story because which would work better in convincing Jack:

    “Hey Jack, if you blow up this bomb, you can go back to the future where you will still be miserable and pining over Lame Kate over there, but serves your right for listening to my Child Killing Mother. I’ll wait while you put that together.”

    -or-

    “Hey Jack, if you blow up this bomb, it’ll be like all your crappy mistakes never happened! Because that’s fair!”

    But about the real point of this post: I think John Locke is really dead. Because gorgeous tragedies like that fit right into the beautiful literary storytelling this show is all about.

    • icy_one

      I really like this theory, if only for the potential of having someone rub it in Jack’s face that he’s too stupid to do things for his own good.

  • Rooky

    I voted for comming back so I can live in denial for a while longer.
    But if he doesn’t come back I think he will talk through Hurley and so will Jacob, seen as Hurley can see the dead.

  • I think it more likely that the energy from the bomb’s explosion meeting the electromagnetic energy will flash the Losties back to their correct place in time, very similar to the kind of time travel that we’ve seen before on the show.

    I just don’t buy into a reset, as much as I’d like to see Locke live again. I think it’s a poor idea, in fact, to wipe out the history of the show and have to start over. Even if the characters remember the past, then what? They’re back in LA and have to go back to the Island again? Not gonna happen.

    I think it possible that Locke will be brought back to life, but more through whatever supernatural means that Jacob previously used to revive Locke after his window fall and to make Richard Alpert immortal.

  • Bufftsc

    Locke, I truly believe is coming back due to the time reset caused by Jughead. What I don’t understand is why people insist that just because there is a course correction that the last five seasons never happened. Of course they happened otherwise we would have never gotten to the reset! The past five seasons are still valid, they still happened, and they are going to prove to be invaluable to all of the castaways as they find them selves back on the island for season 6.

  • Michael (not Michel)

    Im going to just go on repeating something ive already posted until enough people take notice lol:

    “what lies in the shadow of the statue?” –> “he who will save us all”.

    Immediately after this reveal, Ilana and her merry men tip Locke’s corpse out…into the shadow of the statue.

    So i think this isnt accidental and that he is probably coming back…but i dont really mind either way 🙂

    • Iwantmykidneyback

      epic win!

      • Michael (not Michel)

        hell yeah! ..maybe! anyway spread the word.

        • Hi

          Does he need to be alive in order to save everyone. I think you need to merge this theory with the Hurly talking to the dead theory

  • Praenomenal

    Ok. Here goes trying to explain.

    The incident and Locke are at this point two very different things. First off, Whatever happened happened. This is how it always happened. Sorry This is it. That does not mean that anything is missing, not at at.

    It is a shell game so lets follow the shell.

    In 1977 a bunch of love struck morons from 2007 try to change history, with a bomb. If we look past the flawed thinking we can accept that. (God I hate Jack).

    Boooooom, but not. I believe and maintain this is the incident that was referred to. They stuck a pin in the balloon and it was going to be bad. The dropped a bomb in and hey look, the energy canceled itself out. with some interesting side effects. Why do I think this?

    Lets look at some evidence.

    1. The big one, we have seen this before. Wait, I know what you are going to say. “No we haven’t” But I think we have. When a certain Scottish Boater turned a “Failsafe” key. What happened? Looked like a bomb to me. Maybe the EM radiation and the Nuclear Radiation interact. Infact that was the start of a lot of weird stuff on the island.

    2. Alpert says that he watched them die. Ok, so lets suppose that he meant in this event. It would certainly seem like they were vaporized when a big hole appeared in the ground. Alternately it can also mean they “survive” and are seen later but before 2007.

    3. Locke, All of the stuff with the incident takes place 20 yrs before the events with Jacob and Not-Locke. Has no bearing on the Incident.

    We have been following these people thru their eyes with their limited understanding this whole time.

    When the season starts you will find the OC6 in 2007 ready to help Jacob or the Enemy in the final gambit.

    John Locke might be alive because of the far reaching effects if the incident. But trust me, when Desmond turned the key, he sealed the hole the Radzinski opened, closing off the danger but also making the radiation impossible to study, (Dharma’s goal with the Swan). Just as the original bomb did.

    • navtrav

      This is very close to what I have been thinking. I believe “Whatever Happened, Happened” or as was said several times in the finale, “What’s done is done.” This always happened. Two things make me think this:

      1. We see Chang injure his arm and later see him with a prosthetic hand in the Swan and Flame orientation films.

      2. Miles comment about Jack blowing up the bomb causing the incident.

      I think the incident is the reaction between the bomb and the electromagnetic energy they were drilling toward. This reaction somehow drastically minimizes the explosion (thus not destroying the island) results in some sort of unstable energy on the island. The Darhma initiative builds the Swan to manage this, featuring a button pushed every 108 minutes.

      Also, though Juliet might very well be dead it was interesting to note the similarities between her setting off the bomb and Desmond turning the failsafe key at the end of Season 2. Not only were they essentially in the exact same spot on the island, both resulted in a flash. And we don’t really know what all came of “Desmond’s flash” other than Desmond ending up naked in the jungle with visions of the future. Was there more to that? Maybe we will find out. Maybe Juliet will wake up naked in the jungle. Maybe she’s just dead.

      Either way, I believe everything will happen the way it always did and the flash/explosion will result in the losties traveling through time again. I think there are three possibilities of where they will end up.

      1. Back to present time to join the others (most likely in my opinion).
      2. Forward in time to later Darhma times (so we can learn more about what happened in the 80s).
      3. Back in time to the Black Rock era (least likely in my opinion).

      • praenomenal

        You and I are in agreement.

      • “Maybe Juliet will wake up naked in the jungle.”

        Alright. Sounds good to me. 🙂

      • In the name of all that is holy.

        P L E A S E

        Let Juliet wake up naked in the jungle.

        • Motherlode

          gues we can only fantasize about that now

  • Gusteaux

    DocArzt said:
    “One piece of evidence, albeit very tenuous, is Walt’s prophecy – we’ve yet to see this come true. Could Walt have been seeing events from a separate time-line?”
    …Much like Desmond’s vision of Claire and Aaron getting on a helicopter…another example of seeing events from a separate timeline that we have yet to see come true????

    • DarthBubba

      I love it and it goes w/ my theory that Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Jin, Sun and Locke will all wake up right after the 815 crash with memories intact due to being touched by Jacob. Then they can alter the timeline from that point forward.

  • losteldani

    In “The Incident, Part 1,” while Jack and Sayid are down underground with “Jughead” and Eloise and Richard, Jack says something to Richard, in answer to Richard’s queries about Locke. I think Jack was speaking for the writers and producers to all of us Locke fans: “I wouldn’t give up on John Locke!” They were telling us not to despair. Locke will be back, either as a very active ghost or as a resurrected man. Mark my words!

    • Iwantmykidneyback

      yeah I watched the finale again earlier today and I got the same vibe from that scene.

    • benniethecat

      Jack was speaking to us in that scene, telling us to not give up on John Locke. Also, when Jacob resurrected Locke after he fell out the window, he told Locke, “everything will be allright”…the real John Locke is key to this series and will be back in season 6. Locke is what lies in the shadow of the statue.

  • Erikire

    VIVA El Señor Locke!!!

    He’ll be back, I’m a beleiver,

  • tonymcnitt

    I think the history changing thing is not whether or not they land in L.A (because I don’t think they were ever supposed to)…but whether or not they can save the island from Loophole John. Jacob brought all of them there because their destiny was to save the island (a heaven type place where Jacob is Good God) from intruders and devil like people (Loophole John, Jacob’s rival). Jacob is positive about people coming to the island because they are progress to a greater good, a perfect world so to speak, whereas Loophole John wants the island all to himself because he is a selfish devil…Jacob brought the 815ers to the island for his great plan but the plan got all F’ed up when science got in the way…dharma, Widmore and the Other’s. Richard and his folks work Jacob and for the island and are trying to manipulate the things and people there so that it can get back to it’s true purity. Loophole John is trying to manipulate things and people so that he can have it his way (whatever that is, I’m not sure yet, but it involves no Jacob and Himself as ruler).

    So, if Daniel’s plan were correct, I don’t think it involves or has anything to do with the Oceanic 815 landing in Los Angeles and everything going back to normal…I think ‘normal’ is what should have happened to the island when the people Jacob wanted on the island, came to the island. In the end, I don’t think anybody goes back to civilization ever again, why would they when, in the end, they have a perfect existence on their own tropical island, just the way Jacob wanted it to be.

    • Dana

      I don’t think Loophole John is necessarily evil while Jacob is god like. I see these 2 actually as perhaps agents for destiny versus free will. Loophole John believes man is inherently corrupt. He states: “They fight. They destroy. They corrupt. It always ends the same”. Jacob believes that through free will, man can overcome his base instincts and provide for the greater good, even be heroic. It is a power struggle between these 2 ideologies, not necessarily between good and evil. I think that Jacob touched those he did because he saw extremely flawed individuals that had the potential to prove that free will can overcome those flaws. That is why lists were made of the survivors of 815. Those that were deemed “good” or “innocent” (like the children) were placed on the list and taken out of the “game” by Jacob’s people because they could not effectively achieve the end point Jacob is striving for. Loophole Locke has grown weary of the game and Jacob, so he manipulating some of the players to end the game by eliminating Jacob. I think this set the stage for the war to come.

    • Motherlode

      Loophole John doesn`t want to keep the Iland.. he is a prisioner on it and wants to get off to corrupt the world. Innseason 3 when Ben takes Locke to see `Jacob. he takes him to a cabin that is encircled with ash. Ben says be careful no to to break the ring. In the finale of season 5 we see Sthe MIB and Jacob on the beach. MIB says sooner or later I will find a loophole ( coupld he have been referring to a break in the ash circle that surrounds the Cabin that jacob has imprisioned him in. When Jacob finally is conronted in the foot of the statue. jacob says I see you found your loop hole.. Just before that though Ilana and her band are at the cabin and discover a break in the ash circle

  • Gavin

    hydrogen bomb + mass amount of magnetic energy = many possibilities, could the bomb be the incident, maybe. could the bomb change the future, maybe. Can the castaways change their fates, maybe. I think the ending left this too open for theories because it gave us a possible blank slate. The best evidence I can come up with for what’s going to happen is when jacob told faux locke “they’re coming” right before being set on fire, since he appears to be somewhat god-like I would listen to him.

  • Matthew Perry

    Locke’s story is not over by a mile. Juliet very may well be dead, since Jacob didn’t touch her. Everybody he did touch, including Mr Locke, are going to be part of the show’s endgame.

    • JimDD

      When Jacob touched Locke after he fell was the touch that brought him back. Locke was dead when he hit the ground. Jacob revived him.

      He didn’t touch him again to save him from Ben killing him.

      • Matthew Perry

        My point is that everybody he touched is vital to the fate of the island.

      • Motherlode

        I totally agree with your point. Locke was dead 3-4 years before he ever even heard of the islandand it was jacob that lent him a bit of his life force

  • Zonker

    There were 2 potential gamechangers in the finale: 1) the bomb / the incident and 2) Ben apparently killing Jacob. But which was it?

    If the bomb in fact negated the incident, that is, prevented the Swan from having to be built and in a roundabout way prevented 815 from ever crashing, then the bomb going off would negate Locke ever arriving on the island on 815, then learning he had to die, then leaving the island, and again returning as a corpse. So Jacob’s opponent’s plan is twarted by Juliet in 1977. OK, we’re done, but then what do we do for the rest of the 18 hours of Season 6?

    If the bomb negated the incident, but Ben killing Jacob is left to stand as shown in the finale, then you have exactly the type of grandfather paradox that Darlton has been saying they are intent on avoiding.

    If the bomb negated the incident, but course-correction led to 815 crashing by some other means, then the whole Dharma storyline in Season 5 was a waste, and there was no reason for Jack, Kate, Sayid and Hurley to be flashed off of flight 316. If whatever happened, was gonna happen one way or another, then what’s the point?

    I’m left with the idea that exploding the bomb made the incident come true. That still doesn’t seal the fates of any of the characters, what with all the time-flashing going on. Heck, Darlton could always show a flashback in Season 6 revealing that Jacob touched Miles and Juliet at some other point in time. It does seem to preserve the timeline where Locke is killed however.

    And yet… the show seems to be all about redemption (Lafleur, Mr. Eko, Desmond and Penny, even the minor triumphs of Boone, Anna-Lucia and Shannon). Seems unlikely that Locke will be left to go out as nothing more than a pawn.

    At this point, any number of things could happen, including the possibility that turning the frozen donkey wheel split Locke into 2 people, one who was strangely passive again in the real world and wound up killed, and another who flashed somewhere/somewhen else, and who we’ll see again. Of course, it logically follows from this that there would also be another Ben running around out there some place. Hmmmm.

  • JB

    Here’s a random theory (one that I’m really not so sold on, but have been considering over the past few weeks)…Given how much they seem to highlight children in this show, I really think we are destined to spend some time next season in the future (further ahead in time than just 2007)…I’m talking Aaron, Jin Yeon as 20s/30 somethings (even if it is just 1 or 2 episodes or flash forward forwards).

    maybe it will be up to the kids to save everyone and set time back on its right course?

    on the topic of locke, I think it would be just too tragic & depressing to end his storyline in this way…if he was in fact nothing more than a mere pawn who was continually used and abused by everyone his whole life (while being led to believe that he was special and destined for greatness), it would cause such “cognitive dissonance” (I’m a psychologist, so I apologize for using jargon!) for so many fans, that it would be rather cruel of the writers! We’ve invested so much into believing in him, and pulling for him (most of the time at least) in his struggle to prove that he was special, that it would be a major slap in the face…what sad commentary it would be for the underdogs of society, no? Please Darlton, don’t do this to your faithful fans!!!!

    • Iwantmykidneyback

      amen!

    • Motherlode

      as someone who has a psych degree I am amazed by your lack of vision.. Cognitive dissonance happens all the time in spite of the best efforts of those in our profession who try to avert it. Keep in mind that writers are very good at their craft and with all the details put into this all the subtle clues ( even after watching the 1st season over a few times I still pick up on things I missed the previous times and ther are 5 and a half seasons to shift through)

  • ryan

    I think that, like when Des pushed the fail safe, the people in the immediate vicinity will flash. I think that they will all flash to the alternate future and that these will be the “flashes” for season six… kind of like a “what would life have been like if they were never on the island”. I think that they will have to reject this alternate time line (and it will truely show how the characters have developed from being on the island) and somehow return to the 316 crash. HOWEVER, I think it would be really cool if Jack was able to bring “alternate reality” locke back with him to the island. As though that was his ultimate purpose, that using the bomb was only the beginning of it.

    • The idea of the alternate timeline flashes is a really cool idea.

  • jack

    my view of the locke situation is that he is indeed dead. The actual locke had been fooled by ‘the enemy’ as i like to call him, who had been impersonating Jacob in the form of Christian in the shack. We now know that that wasn’t jacob, as the little rescue party revealed in the finale, but some other entity which clearly likes to take on the form of dead people i.e. Locke. This entitiy is also in cahoots with the monster (or indeed is the monster itself) as it told Ben to follow Locke’s every word once again through the image of a dead person (alex), id like to point out ‘locke’ was nowhere to be seen at this point. This also ties in with the gang back in time as Jacob had a small play in all of them coming back to the island. Perhaps this was so that they could blow the bomb up and thus never coming to the island and therefore no dead locke for the enemy to impersonate. We then have to think who is being Locke? I personally feel that the intro to the finale was a reference to this as the other un-named man on the beach with Jacob when the Black Rock arrived said ‘do you know how much i want to kill you’ I feel that this man could be the enemy.

  • Jacobi

    I only skimmed the mammoth line of preceding comments, so pardon me if this has been said.

    I’ve got this image in my head of a major redemptive story involving John Locke taking place next season. We’ve set up that his body has been taken over by The Enemy and that this guy is a foil for Jacob (literally, the black piece on the backgammon board to Jacob’s white piece). What I imagine is a huge battle in next season’s finale, where John Locke fights to regain control of his body, eventually succeeding and flushing The Enemy out into the open, where Locke can finally destroy him and redeem himself.

    I also think it would be cool to see Jack thrown into a villainous role. He already seemed well on his way to that in the finale, with his single-minded determination and devotion to Locke. I think we’ll see Jack unwittingly become one of The Enemy’s followers, putting him on the Dark Side of the upcoming battle.

    • Motherlode

      No Sayid already is. keep in mind that I think that Jacob can only be someone who hasn`t already killed another….jack killed a bunch of Dharmas in 1977 Sawyer killed a fewe as well and the guy he originally killed that owed Hibbs money . and Sayid well he has killed frequently. That just leaves Hugo (hurley).. but no.. Didn`t hugo run down one of the others on the beach?. so h who is leftÉ that just leaves Aaron and since he is a little boy he hasn`t killed anyone.. plus his innocence is intact

  • Crazy Bearded Jack

    I’m fine with Locke being gone, especially after Terry O’Quinn’s comments. He said he “looks forward to playing a new and different type of character next season.” Regardless, this one sentence has me hyped.

  • Kendra

    Let’s also keep in mind that Desmond’s self-described flash from Season 3 never come true. As far as we know, Claire has not gotten on a helicopter with Aaron (or any baby, for that matter). As we weren’t privy to them as we were with the Naomi rescue mission, it’s possible Desmond lied to further his own goals (re-uniting with Penny) by giving Charlie information that he knew would be used to follow Desmond’s true visions. But if that was Desmond’s actual vision, we have yet to see that and it could be coming as part of Season 6.

  • Adam

    It just seems to me like a waste. They built Locke up from the beginning to be special and have a destiny on the island. And all it was for was for him to die for some stupid reason just like Charlie. He might as well have stayed at the box company. Why else would jacob have “brought him back to life” after he fell if his only purpose was to kill him? Locke is not dead.

    • Jackson

      Agreed. Plus remember Charles Whitmore told Locke there was a war coming and he had to be on the island, this could be what he was referring to

      • Motherlode

        Widmore told him this.. but didn`t Ben Linus also say that either Jack or Locke?

  • Vayne81

    My question is… well it’s a long thread and not sure if anyone brought this up or not… but, does anyone find it weird that the box that contained Locke’s body wasn’t a casket?

    • JB

      it probably would have been too heavy to lug around his body and a wooden casket, so they likely dumped it and just threw his body into the box?

      • Vayne81

        That could be a factor… but, I would figure that they would have more respect fot the dead. Not only that, but if they were looking through the wreckage and saw a casket with Lockes body in it, I would think that the question would be right there and then, how is this dude wakling and talking?

        • JB

          we don’t know that they are the “good guys” though…just because they say they are doesn’t mean its true! I imagine that Ilana had to know about Locke being dead and that she was not surprised to see not-locke walking around, which is why she didn’t react all freaked out when they found a guy walking around…this would lend evidence to the fact that Jacob had some knowledge of these events leading to his murder and perhaps was part of his plan all along (i.e., he alerted Ilana & co that there might be a walking/talking version of the corpse they were going to transport on the plane).

          • Motherlode

            really .. i must hacve missed that.. when did jacob reveal that info to ilana

  • Vayne81

    On a side note… I can see Jack and Locke in the future on the beach debating on how they are going to kill eachother… faith vs science.

  • rob

    man, all this talk about the losties going back to either the 815 or 316 wreckage with all their previous knowledge is pissing me off. what fun would that be anyway? that’s cheating in my opinion. i wanna see some egyptian shit. season 6 opener on JACOBS EYE, not jacks.

  • dookieB

    I kinda think having another Locke resurrection (even it was actually real this time), would be kinda anti-climactic. I think if he is going to come back, it’s going to be at the end of the series, maybe during the series finale.

    We knew he was gonna come back somehow in Season 5 even though we saw the casket in Season 4. Dumping his body on the beach and then seeing unLocke’s evil grin before Jacob gets shanked made me kinda think we’re definitely going to be seeing a lot more of him. It is possible that MaybeEsau can go back and forth from being Locke and being scruffy Deadwood guy, right? Maybe he needs to keep up the image that he’s Locke for everyone and they’ll play his body into some Ajira trickery (like time issues). Ben still doesn’t know who he really is, he just thinks Locke has known Jacob for a long time.

    It’d be nice to have the real John Locke get SOMETHING good for once, so hopefully Jacob can come back and bring John back to life to lead the island toward the end of the show (maybe even hand over the throne and some fish).

    • dookieB

      Also, I love all these goofy names for Jacob’s nemesis. I better be careful, I may start saying Jater soon.

      BE ON GUARD

  • Vayne81

    Remember, they can always bring Locke Back to life in the Temple.

    • neoloki

      No, they can’t. Richard was very clear that he has never seen anybody resurrected. This has been one of the falisies going around since Ben was taken to the temple as a kid. Ben was not dead when he was healed in the temple. It does not bring people back to life. Dead is dead.

      • Motherlode

        then what happened with Sayid. Its clear that the others under Dogen drowned Sayid. and he was pronounced dead and Miles confirmed it by telling Sayid he was dead for 2 hours and that the others where shocked and surprised when Sayid sat up. Richard said he never saw any one resurrected but that just means he hadn`t witnessed it 1st hand

  • Uncle Beaver

    Lindeloff, Cuse, and the rest of the writers must be laughing their asses off at us. We don’t know what the hell they have planned, they KNEW we’d all be freaking out over the way this season ended. The “Cut to White” was definitely a nod to the last scene of THE SOPRANOS.

  • cekma

    My theory…

    Two sides one is light, one is dark. John Locke to Walt on the beach in the pilot, while explaining the rules of backgammon.

    Wow! Immediately we are given the most important scene in lost history: A man dressed in white and a man dressed in dark. They talk about how Jacob, the man in light is always bringing people there but all they do is cause destruction. Jacob disagrees and feels its progress. This scene takes place in 1845 – the Black Rock, which has been brought to the Island by Jacob, is floating in the background. We also see the statue from the front briefly. The statue is revealed to be Taweret: the Egyptian God of maternity and child birth. Perhaps the destruction of the statue has something to do with the pregnancy issues on the island?

    I think Jacob weaving was no coincidence. Later on in the episode he talks about how the cloth he was making took a tremendous amount of time and effort. I immediately thought of the survivors and how their destinies were weaved together their entire lives. As soon as the man in dark who I will refer to as “Esau”, in the bible Jacob and Esau are brothers with a heated rivalry. We all know names on this show are not given by coincidence.

    “Esau” tells Jacob he wants to kill him and one day will find a loophole. I immediately thought “great, John is bad.” I think it’s pretty clear that this war between the two for the island has been going on throughout all of time. Jacob keeps bringing people to the island and argues that their work is progress. It’s pretty clear that there is a set of rules and neither Jacob nor “Esau” can physically “kill” each other. I think that this specific day was the day that Richard Alpert arrived on the island. Yeah I was hoping he was thousands of year’s old/ancient Egyptian. His initials are RA, which is the Egyptian sun God. But between this scene and the scene last week when Richard was working on the black rock model in the bottle. I’m going to say he arrived in 1845 and was most likely a slave on the ship. Since Magnus Hanso – the great grandfather of Alvar Hanso – the creator of the Dharma Initiative was the captain.

    Throughout the episode we see Jacob appear and touch our survivors. Foreshadowing to me that they will be his soldiers in a war to come of sorts. He does not visit Juliet. Is it a coincidence that she ended up dead by the end of the episode then? Each moment was pivotal in the survivor’s life. Sayid – the day Nadia died which leads to him agreeing to become Ben’s hired gun. Jack – during the surgery that he told Kate about when they first met on the beach and she stitched him up. Sun and Jin – the day of their marriage. We see him heal Ilana and ask for her help. We see him literally save John Locke after his father pushes him out a window and tells him I’m sorry this happened to you, and everything will be fine. He gives Sawyer a pen so he can finish his letter to the real Mr. Sawyer. He visits young Kate with her childhood friend Tom, who in season 1 we see die when he helps her visit her dying mother.

    Hurley’s visit to me was the most important. It’s the first time I felt everyone had a choice. Free will did indeed existence. Jacob does not reveal who he is. He just tells Hurley about Ajira flight 316 and that he doesn’t need to do anything he doesn’t want to do. Who’s guitar? Just like the drive shaft ring that Sun picks up by Aaron’s old crib, it belongs to Charlie. The idea of free will/choice existing makes this one of the most important moments in the finale.

    1977 – Nothing too much to say honestly. In my mind we got everything that the history of the island has always told us has happened: The incident. Miles I think got it right: Jack thinks he can change things with the bomb. But in reality Jack has always thought he could change things with the bomb, but it was this thought/action that always caused the incident in the first place! I’m more curious about the aftermath of the incident. We know Miles father has to lose his arm, because he appears in the swan orientation film later on with one arm. This seemed to start happening last night. I think Radzinsky becomes ridden with guilt for refusing to listen to Chang. He ends up choosing to be the Swan’s first button pusher. Which leads to Kelvin Iman becoming his partner, which leads to Desmond, which leads to 815 crashing. I think the fate of Radzinsky is a fill in the blanks type. We can assume he will push the button and eventually go insane and blow his brains out. The end. What exactly happened to the survivors when Juliet heroically activated the bomb at the bottom? More on this in my prediction for where we go from here.

    Everyone thinks the game changer is that John Locke is dead and “Esau” has disguised himself as him. Pretty badass. Makes perfect sense if he can’t kill Jacob himself. Who better a disguise then John? John was made leader of the others. Pretend to be John/the leader and make Richard lead you to Jacob. Knowing of Ben’s jealousy for John’s communion with the island – start planting the seed in Ben’s head to make him kill Jacob. To me the ultimate game changer or long con was this: Jacob has not been in the cabin for a loooooong time.

    This means that when Ben took John to the cabin the first time and he saw a flash of an old man saying, “Help Me.” This was not Jacob. This was “Esau.” Jacob was actually holding “Esau” prisoner in the cabin! I think when Ben/John first go to the cabin, and John picks up some of the ash, this breaks the circle keeping “Esau” prisoner. Which means – the “apparitions” of Claire and Christian Shepherd and Alex are “bad/Esau.” “Esau” has been guiding John Locke to make sure he left the island knowing he would die. So he could then scan his body and be able to pretend to be John to manipulate people towards his goal of killing Jacob. I believe “Esau” tried to do this to Mr. Eko when he came to Eko as his brother Yemi. But Eko refused to accept his sins. He told “Esau” that he did what he had to do in order to survive. Knowing Eko was no longer going to be a candidate “Esau” killed him. “Esau” as Locke tells Richard to tell alive Locke he has to leave and die. This is done to ensure that Locke’s corpse will come back so “Esau” can pretend to be John. More on this in my prediction for where we go from here.

    So then we get to the final confrontation. “Esau” disguised as John hands Ben the knife. Jacob tells Ben he can do what “Esau” asks. Or he can choose not to. Again, a reminder of free will. When Ben pours his heart and soul to Jacob about being neglected we get the line of the year in return – Jacob: “What about you?” With that Ben stabs Jacob. While Jacob is “dying” he says, “they’re coming.” Let me quickly sum up Ben in my view: a pawn. An embarrassed, jealous, lying pawn. Who got exactly what he dished out. The master manipulator got manipulated. I’d like to think he will have some sort of redemption before the series ends. But who knows perhaps he’ll stay loyal to “Esau” the entire time.

    Prediction on where we go from here: When Jacob says “they’re coming” while dying I think he is talking about the survivors in 1977. When Juliet activates the bomb I think it will cause an electromagnetic flash that will bring Jack, Jin, Miles, Kate, Sawyer, Sayid, Rose, Bernard, and yes Vincent back to the present. The creators have said Stephen King’s the Stand is a huge influence. I think we are going to now see the ultimate battle of good and evil. Jacob’s soldiers are on their way back.

    Thoughts on John Locke: I think my favorite character has more of a role to play. The destiny of John Locke was fulfilled. He sacrificed himself to make sure everyone returned. More importantly he made Jack Shepherd into a believer. In season 1 Claire had a vision of John. In that vision John had a dark eye and light eye. When Eko tells John he saw a monster, John reveals he saw something different – a bright light. Get ready for Esau vs. Jacob round 2 – Locke vs. Locke. I think the spirit of Jacob is going to go into John’s body. Everything we need to learn about Jacob will be spoken through John next year. He will now be Jacob’s vessel.

    The man of Faith (John), the man of science (Jack) will become one. I think “Esau” will only impersonate John for so long. On a side note: I think it’s clear Widmore might be in some sort of alliance with “Esau.” He wanted to make sure John got back to that island because of the war that is coming. He felt John needed to be on the island to make sure the right side won. Illana and the rest of the shadow of the statue people told Miles not to go on Widmore’s boat. They are the good guys and will win. I think they are the good guys. If they don’t want Miles to be with Charles Widmore then to me this means Widmore is against Jacob. Widmore most likely knows John will die in the process of bringing the oceanic 6 back, which is why he wants him to go to the island. So “Esau” can pretend to be him and get to kill Jacob.

    Damon Lindenlof and Carlton Cuse are huge star war fans. I think we will get the ultimate father son showdown. “Esau” takes the form of whoever will help him in the situation. He was John to manipulate Richard and Ben for the whereabouts and death of Jacob. I think the ultimate showdown will be “Esau” once again becoming Christian Shepherd and confronting Jack. Think Darth Vader vs. Luke. John/Jacob will be in Jack’s corner. Think Obi Wan Kenobi.

    This would work considering the huge father/son issues all of these characters have.

    *The latin/answer to “What lies in the shadow of the statue?” that Richard said translates to“He who will protect/save us all.”

    Funny John Locke is lying in the shadow of the statue right now. In a suit no less. Walt’s visions soon?

    • Adam

      Absolutely AMAZING predictions!!!! I REALLY hope you are right, I honestly don’t see how it couldn’t potentially go this way.

    • Wow

      That post made my brain hurt. Pretty good ideas though

    • Motherlode

      Interesting and not implausible. However I don`t entirely agree with yor assesment. We have had twist after twist the whole star warss saga parallel is very simplistic and this series has been any thing but simplistic

  • spacebender

    Excellent thoughts, docarzt, cekma and others.

    Though based as much in faith as in reason, I’m with you in believing in something of a “both-and” scenario for Locke: he is truly dead but he’s also coming back, even if not in a traditional “resurrection” sense. I believe this because I am convinced both the “fateful destiny” and the “authentic choice” worldviews are true. On the one hand, whatever happened, happened; that is, “dead is dead,” unalterable because that’s what was destined and what actually happened (at least in that particular timeline). On the other hand, there’s still hope for Locke to make a difference; that is, the things he chose of his own free will carry greater weight of consequence even than the outcome in which he tragically dies, because there are other variables that determine how those choices will ultimately play out.

    What other variables? I’ll address those in a moment, but first a review of John Locke’s conflicted life.

    “The show is about redemption. All the characters on this island are confronting the failures of their past and revisiting issues that go to the core of their emotional make up.”
    — Carlton Cuse
    “The show is about the same things that life is. It’s about love. It’s about forgiveness. It’s about redemption. It’s about pain. It’s about excitement.
    — Damon Lindelof

    Even while he was alive, there were always opposing forces at work inside of him — a battle between dark and light. In his childhood meeting with Alpert he chose the knife, it appears, out of anger at the powerlessness of being left in a family where he didn’t fit, instead of choosing the compass that was connected to the calling that could have guided him to new possibilities. In high school, he focused upon sporty interests (“don’t tell me what I can’t do!”) out of a reaction to peer rejection instead of openness to discoveries that would have been more true to his heart. When used and betrayed by his manipulative father, he was given an opportunity to work through the grief and have at least a few years of life with Helen, or to remain bound to his unresolved rejection, powerlessness, and anger. Once he became entangled in his father’s latest con, a choice was made and Helen was irreparably lost to him. When discovered later at the commune by the law enforcement officials, he was faced with a painful revelation about whether he was really a “hunter” or one who could be hunted and played by his own inadequacies. Given the opportunity to help Peter, who had come to Locke on behalf of his mother who had been wooed by con man “Adam Seward,” John denied knowing Cooper and only after the young man’s death did he intervene in a desperate and reactive manner that ended tragically in his physical disability. His work in the box company for an unappreciative boss was dysfunctionally engaged by grandiose, escapist visions of himself as a Colonel, and ultimately his failed attempt of going on the walkabout that left him more profoundly crippled on the inside than ever.

    After Locke woke up physically healed on the Island, this interior duality continued quite painfully, yet with “progress” (albeit messy) beyond what he had experienced previously. This was evident in his helping Charlie overcome addiction, serving by hunting wild boar, contributing to Boone’s process of letting go of his unhealthy familial attachment, building a cradle for Claire’s newborn, letting go of his father, refusing to coerce Hugo into coming with him to the cabin, choosing not to harm the young Charles Widmore, holding onto his faith long after all external signs of hope were gone, sacrificing himself to stop the time flashes, and being willing to lose his life to bring the others back to the Island. At the same time, his fear, anger, doubt repeatedly got the best of him. His blindly obsessive faith in the Island drove him into many questionable actions such as assaulting Sayid to destroy the makeshift radio, abandoning the injured Boone so he could return to the Hatch, being manipulated by Ben into losing faith in the Swan mission, destroying the Flame station for no apparent reason, falling for Ben’s deceptions into blowing up the submarine, knifing Naomi in the back, losing his temper while keeping prisoners under watch in “Eggtown”, continuing to compete childishly with Ben, losing faith to the point of attempting suicide, and essentially remaining a wounded soul all too easily manipulated by any father figure (Christian, Charles, etc.) who could come along and reassure him of his “specialness”.

    It’s one thing to say that Locke’s story is so tragic that it cannot yet be finished — that the writers couldn’t possibly do this to us. Oh, yes they could, and they have. As viewers, we’ve absorbed staggering doses of sad endings for beloved characters, enough to make our noses and hearts bleed, and to rule out the possibility that Locke’s death was nothing more than the end of a helpless dupe would be wishful thinking. All the losses that have happened are devastatingly real. But I maintain that we still don’t know what Locke’s death means or what it will lead to, because we still don’t really know the rules of the game that is still playing out between Jacob and Anti-Jacob/”Esau”. Though at this point John’s death appears to be pointless, it looks to me like there is something greater at work, if for no other reason than because this isn’t just Locke’s story. It is, as Damon Lindelof has indicated, a story “. . . about redemption. All the characters on this island are confronting the failures of their past and revisiting issues that go to the core of their emotional make up.” That process is still unfinished, and I don’t think we should give up on that just yet.

    “Will the future ever arrive? … Should we continue to look upwards? Is the light we can see in the sky one of those which will presently be extinguished? The ideal is terrifying to behold, lost as it is in the depths, small, isolated, a pin-point, brilliant but threatened on all sides by the dark forces that surround it; nevertheless, no more in danger than a star in the jaws of the clouds.”
    — Victor Hugo

    Even if John’s physical healing itself was a counterfeit designed to lead him (and Ben) astray, it doesn’t change the fact that he was chosen (by someone) for a purpose greater than himself, and his destiny is inextricably linked to that of all the others, along with that of the Island and all its conceivable timelines. Even though he died sadly hopeless, helpless and in despair, increasingly desperate to realize the destiny that had always eluded him, the fact remains that he gave himself in good faith to the work of saving the Island and his friends. And though this good faith was abused by those who took advantage of him, I believe there is something in it that will trump the effects even of the betrayal of Jacob by Ben. For Locke is much like a seed planted into what appears from the inside to be utter darkness and extinguishment, but through which it is ultimately afforded the very connection with the earth (the Island) out of which great fruit can now become manifest. The sacrificial quality of John’s freely-offered giving is the very thing which I believe will invoke a “deeper magic” (a la CS Lewis) that will transcend any power currently known to Ben or Richard, or perhaps even Anti-Jacob and Un-Locke. It is a power ancient and primal and mysterious as the “Shadow of the Statue” and the diverging timelines emanating from ground zero. It is from this singularity that new trajectories will originate, and ultimately new outcomes for everyone located in it.

    That is why I believe that despite all that has already “happened,” even for John Locke, the game is far from over.

    • samson

      And i agree. But on the Jacob/Esau part. I believe that they are both actually Egyptian Gods. Or under one. In the bible, Jacob and Esau had nothing to do with anything Egyptian, or Egyptian mythology. And these two seem to be soaked in it. I do believe that anti-Locke IS the smoke, and has been manipulating quite a few people from day one. The God that i believe Jacob is or is under is Sobek. That is the statue. If you look on Wikedpedia, in the description of Sobek, one of his attributes is helping people along in their situations. Giving them a nudge so to speak, without really getting involved too much. That is what he did with Sawyer,Hurley,Kate,Jack,Sayid. Apep is his enemy. I really think that Jacob has been expierimenting with people for many years.Studying human behavior for some reason. With different people from different times. and repeats the same process many times to see if he gets a different end result. And with the electro magnetic energy being used by Jacob i’m sure, It probably is sickening to anti-locke and he hates Jacob for it.He obviously feels different about human behavior than Jacob does. Which is probably why he wants him dead. I’m still not sure WHY they are there. They could have been banished there from a higher Egyptian god. He coul;d have set the ground rules also. Which is maybe why anti-locke needed Ben to kill Jacob. Gonna be an interesting 6th season. Can’t wait. This season was great. The last episode made it even better when you looked back on it. So does anybody think that “What lies in the shadow of the statue” is Locke’s body?. I mean, why did Illana bring him there? To expose anti-Locke??. I don’t think so. She had a very good reason I believe. Jacob gave her the job of making sure Locke was delivered to Alpert so he can be resurrected. Jacob had this all pre-determined. He knew Ben was gonna kill him. All Alpert has to do is bring him to the temple. Locke will return. probably not until mid-season or toward the end. Terry O’Quinn already said he is set to play a different character at the beginning of the season and he knows nothing beyond that. So we’ll see anti-Locke for a bit.By the way, what is Frank a candidate for i wonder???

      • Motherlode

        Frank Lupidus isn`t a candidate, never was. He was supposed to be the original pilot of the Oceanic flight 815.. As Ben Linus said.. looks like the island caught up with you finally. Who knows what Franks role is to be.

  • Sam Paul

    I believe the dead Locke, could be a future Locke that was sent back, therefore allowing the nemisis of Jacob to co-exist with the Locke who Ben Strangled. Perhaps while in the well before turning the wheel, there was more than just Christian Sheppard in that area, perhaps the future Locke who takes the “present” Locke’s place and plays dumb so his plan will work out. You see, for Locke to exist and even co-exist with Jacob’s nemisis the only dead Locke must be a future Locke, so this Locke’s time line can continue.

    • Motherlode

      Sorry dude.. that makes absolutely no sense…the monster wants to escape the island and the only way to do that is to supplant an actual person .. Locke in this case.. check out my various posts below.. I will disclaimer that all my ramblings are mere supposition and I don`t know what is going to happen in the end… but I have reviewed all previous 5 seasons and I catch more little clues with each viewing and have tried to conjecture what i think is going to happen based on previous clues.. i think Aaron is jacobs replacement. and Aaron will foil blackies escape from the island. i think this scenario has played out over the aeaons between jacob and blackie. although I am not sure if balckie has ever come this close toescaping before

  • JB

    random question not related to locke, nor to jacob/esau:

    -Could the “secondary protocol” that Keemy refers to in season 4 involve jughead somehow????

    I’m watching a rerun on ABC of the season 4 finale, and Daniel seems awfully worried about overhearing the transmission of Keemy saying that they were going to put the secondary protocol into place…he shows noticable concern for Charlotte, Miles, and Juliet when they all tell him that they are not leaving the island yet (juliet says-i’ll be here when you get back…and he responds with a very worried look that may be indicative of what he thinks will happen when secondary protocol is put into action)…Originally i thought that keemy & his men were ordered to just kill everyone on the island, but that would seem like a pretty arduous task for just a few guys to undertake on foot (or even via helicopter)…however, perhaps the plan was that they just needed several mercenaries to extract ben then destroy the island with something failsafe and fast, like a nuke????
    Clearly Widmore know about jughead, as he was involved in burying it…could this be a “hidden” clue in the story that provides us with evidence that jughead didn’t destroy the island in 77 and perhaps juliet failed in her mission underground and never detonated it?

    • Motherlode

      wow..excellent postulate my friend.. I never thought about the 2nd protocol being the Jughead nuke. it makes perfit sense since as you point out it was widmore who helped bury it

      • Motherlode

        and widmore who sent keemy

  • holly

    So this comment isn’t about Locke but rather Sayid. We already know he dies. right now he is bleeding to death in a van wearing horace’s dharma suit. Just like the skeleton they found in the van in like the first season. They found “Horace’s” skeleton in the van 30 yrs later.

    • Adam

      No, they found Roger Linus’ skeleton in the Dharma van 30 years later, Horace died in the purge, we saw him dead. His skeleton is in the Dharma grave.

  • ament

    John Locke is alive unless WHH is consistant. We’ve seen the scene where Locke 2.0 told RA to remove the bullet from Locke 1.0. At this point in time we now know there are 3 lockes on the island…mind boggling but true. One fake Locke, one (shot in the leg) Locke, and one casket Locke. The shot Locke is alive even though we know what happens to him, he IS alive at this time. That means there is chance for change.

  • Rob

    Doc, I love ya guy, but you’ve gotta let the Lock thing go, man. I’ve been following your stuff for years now and I know you’ve always had this thing with him thinking he’s going to turn out to be the big hero in the end. I think it’s time to face the facts and realize John Locke was just a gullible schmuck. He was just a pawn all along. He’s dead and he ain’t coming back.

    Then again, Darlton has already stated that the final season will be all about redemption. What redemption is there for John Locke?

  • milo

    I think Locke is dead and won’t come back, but we WILL continue to see Terry O’Quinn playing UnLocke next season – and I don’t think they need a reason for it beyond the fact that for the audience it would be much more entertaining to see O’Quinn back all season than have him switch back to looking like that other guy. Not to mention that we have no idea how he took Locke’s form, any explanation for it can stipulate that he has to keep looking like Locke.

    Besides that, I’m not convinced that UnLocke is merely an impostor, not only does the guy look like Locke, but he seems to know more about Locke’s history than any mere impostor ever could. If the show is going to have a character who can somehow be over 100 years old and take the form of a dead guy, then why rule out the possibility that UnLocke is actually a hybrid of the personalities of both Locke and Jacob’s Rival?

  • Jester

    Locke will return;

    Just as “the evil twin”/Esau did, Jacob will also be entering John’s body after he died in the season 5 finale….so there will be two John Locks…one light…and one dark….fate versus free will….

    I also think the clue in the pilot…and the reason for John Locke being able to walk after the crash, is that he IS Jacob already…

    • Motherlode

      interesting supposition.. But I think that Jacob is gone.. after all wasn`t he really bring canidates to replace himÉ of who ther is only the kwons ( jin and Sun, James ford (sawyer) and Hugo. locke and Sayid have both been eliminated. kate was never a candidate neither was desmond. And Aaron.. the blond kid the doppelganger locke encounters.. I seriously believe it is Aaron who is to replace Jacob.. a bit of hebrew irony there

      • Motherlode

        oh yeah and jack.. but i don;`t think jack is a real contender as he killed a few Dharma folks in 1977 (but here again it could have been planted images by the monster. Since Hurley hugo said an intersting thing about not really ever having left the island in season 4…this is where jack visits hugo who is sitting in his room in a psych ward and right after that scene Jack is in his office doing a diagnosis into a mini recorder when a smoke alarm goes off and he sees his Dad in the lobby or foywer of the hospital.. Since we know the monster is imprisoned on the island how can he be in the hosp of the island)

  • Dead is dead. If they use some kind of phoney baloney to bring him back after what his character went through, it’d cheapen his whole journey. People want him to come back because they perceive Locke as a hero, but he never was. He was just a pawn. I think bringing him back now ring as hollow as if they brought back Michael. Not everyone is going to come out of Lost unscathed.

    O’Quinn must continue playing UnLocke because part of his ‘loophole’ necessary to kill Jacob required Blackie take on the UnLocke persona permanently. He can’t change his appearance on a whim like someone else on the Island can. I’m guessing maybe Christian, but not certainly. Someone has posed as Ekko’s brother, as Ben’s daughter, and possibly others. We’re not supposed to know yet who that is, but I’m not convinced it’s Blackie/UnLocke who can do that.

    • Motherlode

      read some of my posts below… Blackie smoky MIB or what ever you want to call him.. is all those characters. He was(is) Christian Shepard right from the 1st couple of episodes, a boar, Alexandra, Goodwins Wife, Yemi, Ana Lucia (after Michael Shot her), Horace Goodspeed (in the cabin when we 1st supposedly meet Jacob… that was Horaces Shiloutte.. after all didn`t Horace… the real one initially build it)? He also appeared as a dripping wet Walt…to Shannon just before Ana Lucia accidently shoots her and to John Locke when Ben pushes John in to the Dharma pit and John is about to shoot himself after Ben shoots him where is missing kidney is and since it seems that blackie can only appear as already deceased people.. what does that say about Walt

      Smoky blackie MIB the mysterious monster seems to appear about the time there is either whispering ( thats him) or when he borrows a deceased persons form (be it man or boar).. or in dreams ( Boones, when he dreams the monster killed Shannon.. some foreshadowing. Lockes when he and eko search for the question mark where he dreams he is Eko who falls off the cliff. and before that when he dreams of the nigerian plne crash on the island where he sees his Mom and a bloody boone chanting about theresa faling up the stairs then down the stairs.. is that the same theresa that Faraday hurt in season 5? Theresa falling up and down the stair of time as her mind or consciousness whips around in the time stream?

  • Kinzzy

    As painfull as it is for me to admitt, the jon locke well have all come to love is gone, benjamin killed him, that is that,(GRRR) BUT the guy that was jacobs arch enemy, has come bak in LOCKES body!! so its not locke, its the evil bearded guy!

    • Motherlode

      Actually it wasn’t Ben who killed John it was the man who may or may not be Johns dad ( and the man who inadvertently killed Saywers who is really James Ford parents) who Killed John when he threw John out an eighth floor window 4 years before Locke got to the Island.

  • Lockeman

    Well I hope Locke can finally redeem himself somehow and become special

  • Brendan

    This is somewhat of a strange way to read into this, but here’s my thought.

    There is a pattern to the way the writer’s ultimately kill characters. Though they don’t show much reverence for their lives, they do, in every case (excepting Nikki and Paulo) send them off with dignity and closure, if not in the context of their death (as with Eko and Charlie), then with the viewers understanding of their deaths (as with Shannon via flashbacks). Locke was not granted this kindness: he died confused, broken, and lost. The MiB masquerading in his form only furthers this strange perversion of his character and legacy within the show. It seems inconceivable to me that the producers won’t allow Locke the opportunity for redemption and closure, and in a manner far more significant than a simple bit of endgame advice through Hurley’s sixth sense.

    Beyond this, unless the question of Jacob’s replacement is ultimately negated (say for instance MiB is killed) Locke is the only candidate (excepting MAYBE Jack, but that still feels strange to me, though his coming arc may change this) who makes any emotional, thematic, or narrative sense. Ben would be interesting, but he’s off the list, Sawyer’s, Kate’s and Jin & Sun’s arcs don’t seem to be leading that way and they haven’t been involved enough in Jacob’s politics for it to be imaginable that this will change, Hurley’s choice would be comical, and Sayid has far to much to redeem himself for to even become a sympathetic character again. Beyond this, the shows protagonists have always been, ultimately, Jack and Locke.

    And lastly, there have been far too many parallels between Locke and Christ to ignore, particularly in the “Last Supper” promo photo with Locke in the Christ seat. The insistence of keeping MiB in Locke’s form is difficult to ignore as well, particularly given that the original MiB actor is apparently available (given his recent appearance). All signs seem to point that eventually, likely soon, something monumental is going to happen with the real Locke.

    • Motherlode

      Brendan
      I would like to conjecture that There are really 2 Kwon candidates and 2 Shepard candidates. and I don’t mean Christian he died before arriving on the island and Jacob didn’t bring him back like he did Locke.. but his grandson Aaron, Jacks Nephew. In ancient times (re: the time of the exodus), The Name of the patriarchal is bestowed on all male progeny, much unlike todays PC considerations where the mothers name is bestowed. hence Even tho Claires name is Littleton Aarons surname was never really attached as littleton only implied. It could just as easily be Shepard after the grandfather since Claire is Christians illigitimate daughter (half sister to Jack)

      this is by no means an irrefutable fact merely something to ponder

  • Lily

    I think real Locke will return and I have several reasons for this. Forgive me if some have been mentioned already but I really couldn’t read through all. So here goes:

    1) What lies in the shadow of the statue? Answer: He who will save us all. What was lying in the shadow of the Statue?….John Locke’s body
    2) Walt said he saw everyone looking at Locke who was wearing a suit and they wanted to kill him. I don’t think he was referring to mib because he was not in a suit…locke was.
    3)In the flash sideways…locke is the only dead character that gets a centric
    4)Again in the flash sideways…Locke says to Jack they didn’t lose his father they just lost his body. This suggests that there is a belief that the body and mind/soul/consiousness whatever you wanna call it are two separte things.
    5) When mib is visited by the young boy in the forest, he says to him “Don’t tell me what I can’t do”. Classic Locke line. Perhaps locke’s consiousness was not lost after all only his body was lost.
    6) I dunno about anyone else but i feel as though a lot of time was put into building the character of Locke and a lot of emphasis was placed on the fact that he was special. Jacob even went through the trouble of bringing him back to life. I don’t think this much would have been invested unless Locke played a major part in the end…and i mean the real Locke.

    So overall I can’t say exactly what will happen but I think it will be along the lines of Locke’s consiousness overtaking mib’s and therefore him becoming the ultimate candidate to replace jacob or maybe a completely separate party?? Whatever it is the real Locke will play a huge part in the end game in my opinion.

  • Motherlode

    About Locke…

    We know that Locke was tossed out a window by a man who may or may not be his real dad. Lets face it a 100 foot fall usually is fatal. I think Locke was dead before he ever got to the Island. And that Jacob brought him back to life. If you watch Lock isn’t breahing until Jacob touches him. he then spends 4 years in a wheelchair, Ok cut to the Island.. the first night everyone hears the mysterious “monster”. Locke decides to leaveMicahael and kate when they 1st go out hunting…Shortly after Locke encounters the monster face to face. Now here is where things get funny. I think when Locke 1st encounterd the monster it was able to copy Lockes form. I think after this every scene Locke is in, is an alternate between Locke and the monster posing as LOcke.
    A couple examples.. Watch the eye expressions when you go backl to review season 1 episodes. An example.. Just before Jack nearly falls off the cliff.he is chasing his father ( who as we find out is really the man in black projecting an image) as an aside have you noticed that MIB only looks like people who are already dead? Jacks father, Goodwins wife, Horace Goodspeed, Ekop’s brother Yemi, Locke ( only because Locke was dead before he got to the island). So what does that say about Shannon seeing a dripping wet Walt just before she is shot by Ana Lucia. Anyway Back to Jack on the cliff. Locke was on the beach just before talking to Sayid and kate and was going off into the jungle. yet just before jack see his father and is somehow found by Locke and pulled up? I think it was MIB who pulled Jack up because Jack was chasing his father (MIB). Another thing There is an incident where Sayid returns to JAck and Kate after escaping Rousseau and says we aren’t alone on this Island ( an aside her its just before Hugo discovers Ethan isnt on the flight manifest. Locke creepily comes out of the forest just as Sayid makes his comment about not being alone on the island (is it Locke or MIB?).

    How about when Locke slugs and ties up Boone. Where Boone has to rescue Shannon, He sees shannon killed by the Monster. Yet when he comes back Shannon is a live. Booone reveals what he saw ( I think the monster can project mind illusions.. Why the losties see dead people)…Locke says .. Is that what IT showed you? I gave you an experience vital to your survival on this island. He later sacrifices Boone who the Ilsand asked Locke to make. Both those times thats the real Locke. Jacob may have lent some of his life force to restore Locke after the 8 story fall. But MIB had already claimed Locke easrly in season one. Incidently the 1st time Locke and Walt have a conversation Locke asks Walt want to know a secret? That secret has yet to be revealed.. You have to wonder if Its Locke or MIB who asks.. since Locke is playing bacgammon.. And holds the white and black opieces before walt

  • Motherlode

    Locke and the Compass…As in my prior post I postulated that Locke was claimed early by MIB during season 1. Locke gave Sayid a compass that doesn’t point to magnetic north (in the bible looking to the north supposedly is looking to God). But the compass doesn’t point north as Sayid later tells Jack when Jack asks Sayid where he got the compass. Sayid says Locke gave it to me. again is It really Locke or MIB and is the compass really a moral compass? look what happened to Sayid in the final season. He lost his way and gave himself freely to MIB after making so many wrong decisions the repercussions of accepting the compass that points away from North?

    So what does that say about the compass Alpert and Locke exchange during the time shifting season (season 5)

  • Motherlode

    Remember when Sawyer was chasing the Boar who took his Tarp in season one and it only targeted stuff Sawyer had? Just before each appearance of the boar, there was whispering then the boar appeared ( recall that just before the real Locke met the monster it killed a boar?… the one Locke was hunting. Kate and Sawyer had a game of I never (oh that famous college drinking game). While they slept Sawyer dreamt of the night his dad killed his mom and then himself.. there was whispering in that dream. Sawyer and kate awkae to find all of Sawyers stuff strewn and his clothes urinated on.. Locke wals out of the forest about that time. Is it Locke or is it MIB?

  • Nicolaz

    man!!! i am agree with you he is “dead” but somethiong tells me that he is longer in the serie first of all he has chapter in six season and then when jacobs nemesis sees a child in the jungle and bega to chase him the boy tells him somtng and he answers dont tell me what i cant do!!! so what does it mean? man i am just faithful

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