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Wild Speculation – “The Incident”

By RandomZombie,

  Filed under: Lost, Lost Theories
  Comments: 110

Better late than never, right?  Real life intervened and delayed my writing, but I finally got caught up.  Enjoy!

Remember back in the season one finale: when you knew that the show was about to end but you were waiting for that one final shot?  They would pan down, you would see whatever was in the shaft, and then “LOST” would flash on the screen and you’d have all summer to consider the meaning of whatever it was that you saw.  But that shot never happened (which, in retrospect, is amazing and brilliant.)  The season five finisher was similar.  This time though, as the clock ticked, away we knew that we didn’t have enough time to find out what was going to happen, so we’re left with everything to speculate about.  Heck, we don’t even know for sure that the bomb went off.

There was so much going on in this episode that I’ve decided to break it down by character.  I should start by saying that my thoughts are based on the assumption that, whatever does happen in 1977, 815 crashes on the island – because whatever happened, happened.

 

Sayid:  The man with the most to gain if the bomb changes history, and the least to lose if it doesn’t, may be a goner.  “Nothing can save me,” he said to Jack, and the look on his face said that he wasn’t just talking about his life.  Sayid has lost everything that he has ever cared about, was tossed aside by the man who sent him on a bloody but purpose-giving killing spree, and in trying to destroy this monster, ended up creating him.  I’d like to see him make it, and I’m not giving up hope – the island is powerful, and I’d like to think that Sayid’s purpose entails more than just shooting a child and rigging a nuclear device to explode on impact.  When the time-travelers take their final flash through time I hope that Sayid isn’t left behind like Charlotte was.  He’s much too kick-ass to be killed by a drunkard workman.

Kate:  Even as a child she was causing trouble…  And I thought that she might have been redeeming herself – she was the one voice of reason against setting off the bomb.  Then a bloody Jack walks out of the jungle and she caves, even though the man is trying to nullify everything that they had together, and in doing so ensure that Kate spends a hefty amount of time behind bars.  There’s one more season for this character to become, at the least, likable.  Something drastic needs to be done.

Radzinsky: “Hey, Stuart?  Remember that time that Dr. Chang asked you to stop drilling into that electromagnetic pocket, and you wouldn’t, and all hell broke loose and Phil got impaled and Dr. Chang lost use of his arm?  Oh, and the gunfire and all those people dying?  And you know how, because of that, someone has to live underground and push a button every 108 minutes or the whole world is screwed?  Well, you’re new assignment just came in…”

Sun / Charlie / Claire / Hurley: When I was rewatching season three and saw that Charlie’s DS ring was left in Aaron’s crib, I knew that it was going to make a reappearance.  Sun found it for a reason, and it’s a safe bet that, with Charlie dead, its use will have something to do with Claire.  After all, Christian may be some form of apparition, but Claire is still Claire.  As far as we know.

Or: Sun has the DS ring and Hurley has a guitar – two objects that a resurrected Charlie Pace would be very happy to see.  It’s probably just wishful thinking, but the ring and guitar are there for a reason.

Rose and Bernard: Good for them!  My only problem is that I was hoping that Bernard, as the last surviving member of the tail section group that joined the other 815ers, would have a greater purpose in the overall scheme of things.

Are they Adam and Eve?  Probably not.  For one, they don’t live in the caves.  Plus, Jack estimated that the corpses had been there for forty or fifty years – Rose and Bernard are living only twenty-seven years before the bodies were discovered, and they looked like they had plenty of time left.  Also, Jack found a small bag with two stones, one black and one white.  If the bodies were Rose and Bernard, then the mystery of these stones would come to nothing.

Jack: He wants to detonate a nuclear bomb on an inhabited island because he and Kate couldn’t cut it in a relationship?  Remember Jack the hero?  Remember the man who brought Charlie back from certain death?  Remember the live together, die alone speech?  What the hell happened to this man?  I have no doubt that they would only sink Jack this low so that he can rise back to his former glory in the final season.  Many people believe that it’s Jack, and not Locke, who is the chosen one (I hope it’s Locke,) and no true hero can have his glorious victory without first descending to a point of misery.  Odysseus was imprisoned on an island and thrashed for days by the sea after watching all of his comrades perish, a one-handed Luke Skywalker was reduced to tears in front of his terrible father before coming into his own as a Jedi, and Captain Malcolm Reynolds saw everything he knew on the brink of extinction before finally releasing the Alliance’s horrible secret to the ‘Verse.  Jack will rise again.  Will he be the new leader of the Others?  Will he be the new Jacob?  He has faith in Locke, and that may be the first handhold on his climb back to greatness.  Whatever happens, I hope it’s worth the wait.

James: Not Sawer.  Sawer was a product of James Ford’s unresolved issues with the man who ruined his family.  Then he strangled this man to death with a chain.  Sawer doesn’t need to exist anymore, even if the woman he loves (not Kate) is dead.  All he wanted was to be left alone so that he could be happy.  Then came Kate, the woman who he had fallen in love with, and who loved him back whenever Jack wasn’t around.  It’s easy to forget that, prior to her leaving the island, he only knew Kate for about four months.  He was with Juliet for three years.  We’ve seen him as a loner con-man, then as a responsible and committed leader (and lover.)  If Juliet is dead we’ll see another side of James.  He’ll be angry, and not least of all at the woman who came between him and Juliet.  But the positive changes that his years in the Dharma Initiative allowed to happen won’t completely abandon him.  When it’s time to choose sides, he’ll pick the right one, and he’ll be determined and ready to inflict punishment on the bad guys.  He won’t be quite so nice as he has been, and he’ll be one of the most dangerous forces on the island.

Juliet: That scene tore my heart out.  You know the one I mean.  James wanted to hold on to her, both physically and emotionally, but the forces acting on them were just too great.  I don’t want her to be dead, but if she is, then at least she died in a moment when she was taking charge.  She was lured to the island where she existed subject to Ben’s whims, then carried to a time where a reunion with her sister, the one person who she longed to see again, was impossible.  But in her final moments she was finally in control of her destiny, and she chose to take action.  If a touch from Jacob means protection or survival, then Juliet is truly gone.  That sucks.

Richard: So we know that Jacob is the source of Ricardos’s lack of aging, but we still have no idea how long Richard has been on the island.  I was half expecting to see him, at least briefly, on the Black Rock.  Without that shot, however, it’s quite possible that he had been on the island long before the ship arrived, possibly along with a group of Others.  And how did 1977 Richard know where to smash in the wall in order to enter the house in the barracks?  This would suggest an intimate knowledge of the layout of the Dharma village as well as a deep familiarity with the temple.  And if the temple is so near the island’s surface, how is it that construction of the barracks didn’t accidentally unearth the tunnels?  Unless someone who designed the barracks was also associated with the Others – that would also explain the convenient proximity of the tunnel and basement.  Could the Others have infiltrated Dharma?  Possibly even before the Initiative began working on the island?  Jacob brought the Black Rock, and possibly Oceanic 815, maybe he also brought the Dharma Initiative.  Maybe the “very clever fellow” who built the pendulum in the Lamppost is the same man that leads the Others.

Ben: He never saw Jacob and doesn’t know why.  It can be assumed that his intention once gaining leadership of the Others wasn’t to deceive them, but it became a necessity once Jacob refused to show himself.  But perhaps he was chosen by Jacob, and his purpose all along was to deliver the fatal blow when they finally did meet.  He was a perfect choice – such a brilliant liar and manipulator would be so confident in his abilities that he would never suspect that someone was manipulating him.  He always had a plan, was always in control, and therefore made the perfect pawn.  But, in the end, he performed his duty well, and may be rewarded for his years of loyalty to the great leader who refused to acknowledge him.

The real Locke: When Lapidus asked what was in the box, I jokingly said “Three spare John Lockes.”  I had no idea how close I would be to the horrible truth.  It was wonderful to see John confident and in charge, and then we find out that it wasn’t really him.  The possibility that John Locke is gone for good is unthinkable, and it would royally piss off a whole lot of people – including me.  But I don’t believe that he’s gone for good.  The island healed his spine, and it looks like Jacob brought him back from the dead during their encounter after Locke’s fall – and that gives me hope.  Jacob – who also isn’t dead – will need a general, and who better than John Locke?  He will return to regain his identity, and though he probably won’t be leading the Others, he’ll have an important role to play in the events to come.

Ilana and friends: When Jacob visited Ilana in the hospital it was made clear that they were already acquainted with one another.  If an “Other” is defined as a follower of Jacob, then there could be several branches.  We know that there are Others off-island, and Jacob clearly isn’t confined to the island’s borders.  Jacob knew that some stuff was about to go down and put Ilana on Ajira 316 because he knew that she, as well as Bram and the others with them, would be useful in the events to come.  This also explains why she brought Sayid: Jacob knew that he needed to be back on the island and wouldn’t return by choice.  After finding the “note” in the cabin, both Ilana and Bram recognized the statue, and at least one of them knew exactly where it was.  Could Ilana be the off-island version of Richard?  Not really a leader but someone knowledgeable about what’s going on and there to guide those who are in charge?

Frank: He may be a candidate.  For what?  Maybe for leadership of the Others.  Ben was ousted and Locke is dead, so there is no leader.  Jacob might have tasked Ilana with being on the lookout for a new leader.  Next season we could be seeing Jacob the Great and Powerful instructing Leader Lapidus and General Locke.  That definitely works for me.

Jacob and the Adversary: “They come.  They fight.  They destroy.  They corrupt.  It always ends the same.”

“It only ends once.  Anything that happens before that is just progress.”

This has been going on for a long time.  From the sound of it, whatever the survivors of Oceanic 815 are in the middle of has been going on long before the Black Rock made its way to the island.  Jack, Locke, and friends came, did a lot of fighting, and their fare share of destroying.  As for corruption, I guess that’s part of the bigger picture.  The big question is: is this the ending, or just more progress?  Considering that this is the only occurrence that a television series has been made about, I’d think it’s a safe bet that we’ll see the ending of whatever it is that these two mysterious characters are talking about.  Someone is finally going to resolve things – probably Jack, but I hope it’s Locke.  Or maybe they’ll throw us a curve ball and it will be James, or Frank… or Bernard.

Jacob brought the Black Rock to the island, and based on his appearance in the lives of our friends, he brought Oceanic 815 and Ajira 316, as well.

I can’t begin  to guess just who these two men really are.  They are probably very ancient, and more than likely not human.  Gods, perhaps?  Left over remnants of the Egyptian pantheon?  Or ancient people who were given gifts and assigned the tasks of protecting/destroying something that the fading ancient gods could no longer influence.

The white and black clothing was intentionally obvious, saving us from debate over who is really good and who is evil – evidence that is supported by the rest of the episode.  Not-Locke doesn’t seem very trustworthy, and they did all they could to make Jacob feel benevolent.  His touching of the passengers of 815 was significant, possibly marking them with a type of protection.  With the exception of Rose and Bernard, who escaped to find peace, and Claire, who has temporarily vanished, those that Jacob touched are the only ones from 815 alive and on the island.  Or possibly he was marking them for a safe return, ensuring that Ajira 316 would go where it was supposed to.

I don’t believe that Jacob is dead.  There was no surprise when the Adversary showed up in his home, and, knowing that Ben was capable of killing him, Jacob seemed to goad Ben into taking action.  My thought is that Jacob’s treatment of Ben – his refusal to speak with him and the sacrifices that Ben made – were all done to ensure that Jacob was killed.  What lies in the shadow of the statue?  The answer translates to “He who will save us all.”  That has a very prophetic feeling about it.

I think that maybe both Jacob and his Adversary are monsters.  We’ve seen the black smoke monster many times, but in season two Locke described the monster that he saw (during season one) as a “beautiful white light.”  Jacob wore white, and maybe the monster that Locke saw was actually Jacob, showing himself to Locke to help cement Locke’s faith in the island.  The smoke monster we’re used to is the black-clad adversary, who took on several forms in order to accomplish his goal of killing Jacob: he was Yemi, and killed Eko so that Locke would receive the sign from Eko’s stick; he was Walt, to talk John out of the Dharma grave and into killing Naomi; he was Christian, accomplishing, among other things, making sure that Locke turned the frozen wheel; and he was Alex, ensuring that Ben would follow not-Locke and do whatever he said.

Ilana said that Jacob hadn’t been in the cabin for a long time – it could have been the Adversary that called “help me” to Locke – we don’t know when the ash line was broken, or what it’s true purpose was.  Was it to keep someone in, or to keep danger out?

 

I just rewatched the scenes with Jacob and his “friend,” and got the idea that they could be working together.  His friend says that he wants to kill Jacob, but maybe that’s what has to happen for the “progress” to turn into an ending.

There’s a loophole, though: Jacob can only be killed by someone who truly believes in him, and who follows his word, and this person has to do it of his or her own free will.  Enter Benjamin Linus.

Jacob’s friend says that one day he’ll find a loophole.  Jacob replies, “Well, when you do I’ll be right here.”  And he found his loophole, which was the alienation and torment of Ben Linus.  A chosen leader who was kept away from Jacob, and who had to sacrifice his daughter, and the island itself, for a man who would not even meet him.  And Jacob was waiting patiently to die.

Jacob’s friend used the appearances of Alex and Locke to push Ben over the edge, making him want to kill the man who Ben told, “I never questioned anything.  I did as I was told.”

Jacob made sure that it was Ben’s decision; “Whatever he’s told you, I want you to understand one thing: you have a choice.”  When he said “What about you?” to Ben, it wasn’t said with malice, but almost with pity.  He knew that Ben had been used – he wasn’t proud of it, but it was necessary.

Listen to the words and tone of the conversations between Jacob and his friend.  They can easily be interpreted as sinister, but that’s what we expect when one person wants to kill another.  There’s nothing overtly malicious.  They could be two people working together to ensure that one of them dies.  “They’re coming,” could have been a warning to his friend, who clearly understood who he meant, and, after he kicked Jacob into the fire (which was necessary to cleanse the body for whatever step comes next,) that look on false-John’s face could have been because of what was to come – whoever is coming means trouble.

 

I’ll end here, as this is getting a little long.  My hope is to follow the viewing schedule set up by the good people at DocArzt.com and give my thoughts on any unanswered questions (as well as general complaints about Kate.)  Thanks for reading.

From TVFrenzy:

  • Gjay

    Some interesting points here, nicely done zombie. I am glad to see you are pretty confident that Jacob is indeed the ‘good’ guy and our mysterious friend is the ‘evil’ as this is most certainly how i interpreted those scenes.

    You at all thinking though that it might all just be a bit to obvious with the white verses black clothing and in fact its the reverse? I say this because I have read several peoples theories who believe this and I didnt really consider this straight away.

    • RandomZombie

      I did consider it, but I think that the writers are giving us this one – probably counting on it being confusing, given that Lost viewers are used to being deceived.
      Our first instinct is white clothes=good, black clothes=bad. Then our Lost-viewing minds, corrupted by the show’s wonderful treachery and mystery, says “that can’t be right… they’re tricking us!”
      In this case the trick would be too obvious.

      As I mentioned, I’m open to the possibility of both of them being good. The ‘they’ who are coming may be the evil force. Possibly one we have yet to meet.

      • JugheadGoBoom

        Have either of you considered that neither represents good and neither represents evil? I do. We as fans of good stories have been taught to look at things as good v. evil, but I say Lost is more about Destiny/Fate(Black) v. Free Will/Autonomy(White). And both sides of this ‘war’ encompass and struggle with good and bad.

  • Diggymow

    Nice piece, thank you for writing it. First of all I think Kate is pretty much ruined as a character at this point which is really sad. They’ve had her change her mind so many times without any reason behind it that saving her would be pretty difficult. For me if James and her ever do get back together it would be about the most unrealistic thing they’ve ever done.

    Second I’m really hoping Locke is dead. It would be stupid to kill him for two seasons then just bring him back to life straight away. Darlton seem to like making us think a character is dead only to go ‘lol just jokes!’ In the next season. It seems like after they killed Charlie they haven’t had the balls to stick with it again. First with Jin, now probably with Juliet also. However at least with these two we didn’t see a body. Locke is dead, I hope they don’t feel the need to go back on that just for another little twist.

    • RandomZombie

      Locke has been my favorite character since the beginning. Since that strange and somewhat disturbing smile to Kate as she was taking the shoes from the body. Without John Locke, the show is critically wounded.

      The thing is, no character has actually been brought back to life. Jin was never dead, and Charlie only appeared to Hurley, and might not have actually been Charlie. (Okay, Charlie might have been clinically dead after Ethan hung him, but it wasn’t impossible for a trained doctor like Jack to bring him back.)

      We have been told that Locke is special. Heck, we’ve been shown it! His paralysis was cured, and he’s always been in tune with the island – sudden downpours never caught him off guard, for example.
      If Locke’s specialness was for no other reason than for him to be used and killed off… well, other than being anti-climactic, it’s an insult to those of us who have believed in this character for so long – a character who the producers and writers have molded so that people believed that he had a greater purpose on the island.

      If he’s truly dead, I certainly won’t stop watching the show, but I’ll never love it as much as I have for the past five years. And I doubt that I’m the only one.

      • Iwantmykidneyback

        ditto…

      • Diggymow

        Weren’t we shown he wasn’t special? Granted he could walk again but Rose had her caner cured and somehow I don’t think she’s all that important. The point was he was never special, he created that himself. Alpert even said so, he visited him three times and couldn’t see anything important about him. I’ve always liked Locke as well but once we’ve seen his dead body he should stay dead.

        I don’t see why everyone wants him to come back so much. All he ever did was get manipulated anyway. He never thought for himself, even when he was finally made leader of the others the first thing he dead was ask Ben “What do I tell ’em to do?” He was never special or thought for himself he spent his whole life getting manipulated.

        • ragjag

          Richard probably see’s locke as special because of the time travelling when Locke even himself told Richard i’m the leader
          Did Jack’s opinion of Locke to Richard possibly plant the seed for the future?

      • JB

        When Richard visited Locke when he was an infant, the nurse says that he’s a miracle-he survived infections & was a fighter…as a young boy, he drew a picture of smoke monster looming over a bald person (fore”shadowing?” perhaps)…they never showed him visit him as a teenager though (only mentioned mittleos via his teacher)…the very fact that a man appeared & said he was from the future in 1954 then vanished into thin air then upon checking him out those few times should be enough proof that something is out of the ordinary with this guy, no? what more proof does richard want?

      • Wintermute

        I’m with you there.

        Locke is every one of us who ever hoped and dreamed there was something better out there. The eternal underdog. The man looking for a purpose. That’s why he resonates so strongly with so many of us.

        “Don’t tell me what I can’t do!” Is there any phrase more inspiring, especially when coming from a man who has had such a terrible life?

        He can’t be gone. There has to be more to this. Remember, Locke is the consumate gamesman. We appear to be dealing with some sort of on-going “game” between Jacob and the Man in Black. What better player than John Locke?

      • Wintermute

        Oh yeah, and we know that Jacob made a point of being there when Locke fell, and apparently brought him back to life. He must be pretty important for Jacob to go that far.

        Follow me on this: If Jacob was meeting the losties in order to create some sort of “counter-loopehole,” which is a theory making the rounds, the the thing for Jacob to do would have been to simply let Locke die when he fell. We know that the Man in Black’s use of John’s appearance was part of the loophole. If Locke dies in the fall, the Man in Black doesn’t find his loophole.

        All this tells me that Jacob has something in mind for Locke beyond “allowing” him to become the loophole. Jacob planned to die, but he has plans within plans that go beyond what we have seen. He had a job for Illana that apparently included briging Locke’s body to Richard. There has to be more. Long live Locke!

      • lockeheart

        Im thinkin the losties get flashed to immediatley after flight 316 crashes on the island. With locke’s dead body there, we will see the true-locke in his visits he will have with hurley (who has the ability to talk to ghosts). Locke will warn hurley of his coming evil twin, and the opportunity they have to truly change the furture by saving jacob. Who knows maybe if jacob is saved he can make the real locke a alpert like figure.

      • Gripp

        The oddest thing about all of this is that now we are supposed to believe that some of these people are apparently shapeshifters. WTF

        • lockeheart

          not really. Technically this shapeshifting thing has been going on since the pilot episode. Christian shepard, yemi etc. all these people are most likely the same person or thing that was the evil john locke.

    • Bikeyme

      They have already used a “little twist” by showing that John Locke was not in fact himself. Twists like those are what have been making me lose faith in this show. I feel that when the writers start sacrificing character arcs and the completion of those arcs for plot twists, the dynamism of the show has been ‘LOST.” This is exactly happened with Faraday and now it seems Locke. They killed both of them off in a “cool” way just so that they can continue with the mind f*cks they have been creating since the start of the show. That’s a pretty lame way to go out. I’m just waiting for the plot twist involving Jack’s death so that everyone can jump off board.

      • Henry Holland

        Add Ben to the list of “plot devices masquerading as characters” (see: Daniel, John, too many others to list). What I took away from the finale was: “Well, sure, we’ve built the show to make you care about *these* people, from the 70’s until now, and you have! SUCKERS! BUWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!”. What gravitis does Ben’s actions have now? None, because he’s been reduced to a needy child, angry that Daddy wasn’t paying enough attention. Wow, way to go Darlton! You managed to disrespect your own creation by reducing him to a “ABC After School Special” cliche!

  • meems

    Fabulous.

  • belgian lost fan

    weak analysis… even superficial

  • Charlie’s Ghost

    “we’ll find a loophole someday” …’we’ll’ ….very important.

    • Jason

      I don’t think they say “we’ll”. I think he says “I’m”

  • tim

    4+8-15-16-23+42 = 0

  • ragjag

    May I just say like lots of others i’m sure Lost is going to have me mind boggled for alot of months, Bit like a child excited for christmas and can’t wait for the next one and i’m talking about it’s Boxing day !!

    The good/bad debate I’m still unsure on this one I got the impression they were two guys on the island one (Jacob) likes to do tests and the other is sick of the deaths and distruction yet he says i’ll find a way to kill you which does make him seem like the bad guy but then you have Jacob who saves Locke and possibly Sayid lets Nadia die(would the car have hit Nadia and him ,maybe not as Nadia paused on the road.)
    Don’t forget the island has allowed time travel there is no reason that Jacob has done this when he visits Kate,Jack,Sawyer etc
    So the loophole has been found, Does Jacob know this and maybe that’s why his “team” is in the past to undo it, not only does the flight land but all the ones on the island don’t get to start the change of events to Jacobs downfall.

    At the moment this is what part of me thinks but I know the more I read other thought’s it could change.

  • belgian lost fan

    i think that we should consider the possibility that Esau/Not-Locke isn’t the “bad guy” we want him to be… only because he’s wearing black

    in the bible it’s very clear that Jacob is the one who betrayed his father and his brother Esau (2x).

    Their mother was on Jacob’s side – she helped him betray his father and brother.

    Maybe Ilana, who seems to know jacob from previous encounters, could have helped him betray Esau/Not-Locke… in order to become the “man N°1”.

    I know,has some holes in it, just wanted to throw it out there

    what if jacob banned Esau/Not-Locke into the cabin?
    what if jacob tricked Esau and became man N°1 out of betrayel?

    • JB

      I agree with you…it would seem way too obvious for the writers to so blatently point out that jacob is the good guy because he is in white and not-locke/esau is in black therefore we automatically take everything he says to be bad & with malicious intent.

      If you listen to the diaglogue between the two of them, and remove any judgement about who you think is good/bad, consider their statements, it would seem that what not-locke/esau says is perhaps not so evil…maybe they’ve been together for so long and jacob keeps luring people to the island to prove his theory, and esau is just so tired of it and wants him to just stop playing with people’s lives since he feels it always ends in death/destruction why put them through it.

      it creates a much greater mystery and makes you have to think harder when you have a theory about something (the motives of a character) and then are presented with evidence to the contrary and have to reexamine your reasons & support for the theory & revise it…otherwise if everything is spoon-fed to us, whats the point?

      I think the greatest genius of this show is that it involves active participation on the viewers part…you pretty much have to think about things, and oftentimes you are left in a state of cognitive dissonance (I’m a psychologist so pardon the technical jargon!) which is uncomfortable, and requires you to revise your beliefs to fit with new information you get…of course folks can watch the show without doing as much “participating” as we who delve further & post on fan sites, but I know that one of the reasons I love this show so much is that it does challenge me and make me think & makes me want to look into things further to better understand (or try to!) what may be going on!

      A truly great piece of art (regardless of the medium) is one that makes you think about after you see/read/hear it…it sticks in your head and you want to spend time thinking about it!

      • belgian lost fan

        Excellent thoughts JB, thanks for answering

        I have been asking myself – and I think the youtube-guy MrJames whose videos are great, pointed in the same direction – if Jacob really does “believe” in free-will or if he, as we see (he touches our 815ers), influences people to do what they are “supposed” to do (maybe rather: what Jacob wants them to do!).

        … if that’s correct, than Jacob is (sorry for my blasphemy) just a liar who tricks people into doing what he wants to finally “end” the ongoing war between him and Esau

        … Esau/Not-Locke (with his long-con) isn’t the typical “good guy” either (LOST is a great show because nobody is entirely black or white). Maybe he made the experience that there are corrupting and destroying at work when people are involved… (once again, the biblical Jacob is the best example for that!)

        … I’m sure that Jacob’s death will not end anything because he already has mayor players in the game: Ilana & friends, Richard, the Others

        … and guess who’s going to play for the “good guys”: Desmond (who is the Variable in the game, cause he can change things), Hurley (an uncorruptable force), and maybe other 815ers, Widmore (!)

        • Thor

          As for Jacob planning his own death with that other dude on the beach; Ilana knew from very early on that the Locke she met on the beach wasn’t who he said he was. She got that big box very early on! Why didn’t she stop Not-Locke? well, as you say, she was helping Jacob. And Jacob wanted to die..

          • belgian lost fan

            Ilana needs Locke’s body to prove that Locke isn’t Locke… she couldn’t/needn’t stop Not-Locke from killing Jacob.

            I don’t think really wanted to die… I rather think he “accepted” to die because his death won’t change anything;

            BUT his death is the beginning of the end:

            “it only ends once, the rest is just progress”

            … and here we are, the end is near. He already played his cards, so did Not-Locke/Esau.

            Jacob’s death is not the end, but it will definitely lead to it.

      • At the same time, dressing the Swan people in black was a fun way of making them “bad guys” to be shot.

      • newbie

        JB I agree totally —

        Not-Locke – said “it always ends the same . . .” – totally makes me think of the Greek Gods and the games they use to play with the human race – testing, goading, pawning — so my theory here is that these two (Not-Locke and Jacob) have obviously been playing this game with the Human race for some time. It’s a sort of like “is man basically good or basically evil” debate between the gods.

        The trials of Job come to mind here /just with human race – the black rock was one round in the game, the jug head yet another test –the Dharma purge – the incident and our 815’er another incarnation of this testing – this has been going on for centuries between the two of them (gods) with different sets of people and different circumstances. Each time “Man” fails these test – Jacob calls a do over – and “Not-Locke” keeps trying to prove him wrong succeeding up to this point!

        I think next season we will see the statue destroyed in another incarnation of his game with another set of people. Possibly with Not-Locke involved in that as well.

    • Get your facts straight before writing about the Bible.

      Genesis 25:29-34 English Standard Version

      29 Once when Jacob was cooking stew, Esau came in from the field, and he was exhausted. 30 And Esau said to Jacob, “Let me eat some of that red stew, for I am exhausted!” (Therefore his name was called Edom.) 31 Jacob said, “Sell me your birthright now.” 32 Esau said, “I am about to die; of what use is a birthright to me?” 33 Jacob said, “Swear to me now.” So he swore to him and sold his birthright to Jacob. 34 Then Jacob gave Esau bread and lentil stew, and he ate and drank and rose and went his way. Thus Esau despised his birthright.

      Esau despised his birthright and sold it to Jacob who appreciated his spiritual heritage. Later Jacob was forced to trick his father because Esau reneged on his deal and tried to get the blessing from his father despite having given it to Jacob.

      Later in Hebrew 11:8-9 says: “8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9 By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise.”

      This shows that Jacob’s actions in securing the inheritance for himself was approved by God as he was listed among the faithful men and women in Hebrews 11.

      If you say that Jacob stole the birthright or attribute wrong motives to him, by extension you are disagreeing with God and accusing Him of being a poor judge of character.

      • Look, there are so many versions of “the bible” that it’s ridiculous.
        Therefore, “getting your facts straight” practically requires one to study ancient Hebrew and Aramaic for one’s entire scholastic career, okay?
        But, thanks for the info from your version of the bible!

        • P.S. It might not be stealing, but it’s still shady, and yes that version of God is shady by extension.

          • My Favorite God is Amida Buddha.

          • The actions of Jacob, regardless of degrees of shadiness, were forced on him out of necessity by the actions of others. Describing his actions as ‘betrayal’ is biased. It was Esau’s betrayal of his agreement with Jacob to exchange his birthright for a bowl of stew that necessitated the farce in the first place. So place the blame where it belongs, on Esau.

        • Again, get your facts straight before posting. There is one Bible, but different translations, and in every single one, the actions and background of Jacob and Esau are the same. Just because you watch LOST in English and someone else watches it in Spanish doesn’t mean they are watching different shows.

          • What about the Satanic Bible??

  • Sunkenship

    He’s much too kick-ass to be killed by a drunkard workman.

    I agree zombie, I consider Sayid to be the hardest character that ever existed on TV after Omar Little from The Wire. However, the greats are always brought down by some chump. A 10 year old ended Omar.

    Something drastic needs to be done.

    Man, I still dont get all the Kate hate. I bet most of the US and all of Europe will be happy if she does die though. Not me, ive been down with Kate since day 1.
    Nice article overall dude, t’was good read

    • Wintermute

      And who let’s a known alcoholic janitor carry around a gun? I mean, I get, they are under extreme circumstances, but jeez, giving Roger a gun. I don’t know about that.

      Of course, we have seen (The Variable) that they just give janitors (Jack) keys to the gunsafe as a regular practice because, you know, somebody needs to dust off the guns once a week.

      • horselover

        Yeah, really Roger shouldn’t have been so insulted to be just a work man. He seems to have more access to everything in the barracks than anyone.

    • Omar Little is like a gay Zorro with a shotgun! I love that guy!

  • JimDD

    Locke as we know him is probably gone. This is from an interview with Terry O’Quinn:

    “I think, unfortunately, I think it’s ended for Locke. But I’m still there, as far as I know,” O’Quinn said. “I don’t know how it’s going to end for this other guy. I’m sad. I miss John Locke, poor guy. He was a pawn.”

    You can read the entire thing here:

    http://spoilerslost.blogspot.com/2009/05/terry-oquinn-on-lockes-future.html

    • Mack

      That interview really doesn’t mean much considering how out of the loop the actors are kept from future events.

      • JimDD

        That’s why I said “PROBABLY”. Or you din’t see that?

  • Zonker

    re: Radzinsky… I’m one of those viewers still waiting for resolution of all those paranoid, claustrophobic Swan station storylines from Season 2. So if the DI punished Radzinsky in 1977 by putting him in the hatch pressing the button, then why would they need to create the orientation video? Why wouldn’t he just brief his partners as they arrived? Also, why all the vagueness associated with the Blast Door Map? It certainly seemed to be the product of someone with only an opaque understanding of the DI. Was it Stuart’s son, Radzinsky Jr, who became Kelvin’s Swan partner 20 years later? Or was Radzinsky just visiting the Swan as an old man at the time of the purge, and so became part of the next-to-last Swan team simply by default? And what was the real purpose of the Pearl station, since we’ve seen that the Swan station button-pushing had an actual purpose, rather than the behavioralist-experiment purpose suggested by the Pearl orientation video?

    • SeeYouOnMadManPhil

      Stuart FASCISTNZKY!!! Totally nuts!!

  • preztige

    search Jacob and Esau on youtube. watch the 6 part movie. Based on this, we are only half way through their story on LOST. Esau wants to kill Jacob because Jacob took everything away from Esau, the birthright and all the riches. But at the end, Jacob will share all of his riches with his brother and they will live happy together.

    • SeeYouOnMadManPhil

      Uh, you make it easy, Prez, don’t ya?

  • Melissa

    After watching again, I am thinking that Jacob and his adversary are going to come together to fight a common enemy. I agree, as someone pointed out, that the adversary said “we’ll” find a loophole, and I think that is significant. Perhaps killing Jacob and pushing him into the fire will make him return stronger for some reason. The look of fear on Not-Locke’s face was intense when Jacob said “they’re coming.” He couldn’t have been referring to the 316 people because Not-Locke already knew about them. Perhaps the common enemy who is coming is Widmore and his people.

    • JB

      he does have to already know that losties are coming because he kept telling sun that he is going to help find their people (even if he is lying, he knows they are out there somewhere/sometime and could be a factor)…

      maybe when he tells richard that “we’ll have to deal with the other passengers from 316, he really means jack, sayid, hurley & kate, and not so much (or not just) ilana & co.

  • Melissa

    Also, by the way, I hate that people are calling him Esau. There is no evidence that he is Esau.

    • SeeYouOnMadManPhil

      He’s Au.

  • JB

    do we know for certain that ilana bram & locke-box toting crew were going to the cabin to see jacob? did they ever say his name or that it was jacob they were expecting to be there? Could it be that they went there knowing that not-locke would be trapped inside? clearly they were surprised that no one was there and that “he” hasn’t been there for a long time, but maybe we shouldn’t assume they were referring to jacob…maybe they were going to see not-locke to make sure he was still in there (trapped?) and were surprised that he wasn’t there and someone else was using it (christian/claire)?

    wouldn’t not-locke know where jacob was (since he literally told him in the first scene that he would be “here” when he found the loophole)…he was in the same place he was way back before black rock was grounded, so why wouldn’t that be the first place not-locke looked?

    finally, after re-watching the rose & bernard scene, a few things struck me as off: their cabin looked an awful lot like THE CABIN (jacob’s/not-lockes/horaces?)…if for production purposes they wanted to cut costs and use the same props, they could have put a few more palm leaves covering key features to make it look more distinct, but they didn’t…they also could have had that scene placed a bit more spread out in time from the scene where ilana’s crew go to the cabin in 2007 and burn it down (the only time we see the cabin in daylight so it is much more clear what it looks like)…it literally is the next scene, so it is pretty easy to see how they are the same structure.

    also, how could jin have been searching the sectors of the island and never come across the cabin…yes rose & bernard could ellude being seen, but hide the whole cabin, doubtful…unless, that cabin has certain special qualities and can move around itself (like we know jacob’s cabin to do!).

    finally (for real), the things they were saying seemed to sound an awful like not-locke’s position in the opening scene about destroying, fighting, what’s the point in the end? I think this scene was a nod to fans who have been asking all season to answer the burning question about these two, but in true lost fashion, looks can be deceiving, and just when we think we’ve put one mystery to rest, it could really just spark a whole new line of questions & speculation…seeing things in a different perspective is how I’ve come to understand one of the key undertones of this show so far!

    • Melissa

      hmmmm. I like your “conspiracy theory” about Rose and Bernard. I hadn’t thought of it, but it’s intriguing (and very Lost).

  • Jaja_ph

    Im believe that Jacob’s Adversary was pretending to be Jacob in the cabin. He’s manipulating his way to exploit the loophole and used Ben in the process. At least, that’s how I interpreted Jacob’s response when Ben said “What about me?” He doesn’t know what Ben was talking about.

    And also the circle of ash that was protecting the cabin, it has break in it. So whoever was there, escaped.

    Another thing, the Jacob in the cabin hates technology. This somewhat compliments his despise for humans (I cant really verbalize the connection but I know its there, even indirectly).

    Nice interpretation too. I’m also a believer that whatever happened, happened. That they caused the very incident that they were trying to prevent.

  • V3L

    first time post.

    what puzzles me is, if the ajirans knew that lockes body was in the box why didnt they do anything when they saw the fake locke parading around the crash site. why did they jus let him to do his thing.

    the way they handle the box earlier, its as if they came to the island precisely to show the others lockes dead body but yet, they had no hand in bringin the body to island. they look as if they know wat theyr doing but yet they said to richard at the end that they just ‘found him’ in the cargo hold. if they just stumbled upon him then it leads to the conclusion that they came to the island with no fixed mission. they then found lockes dead body and that became the mission??

    again the question, if they knew the living locke was phony, why didnt they do anything. all this is just wierd to me.

    and again if jacob did know that
    aj would find a loophole sooner or later and kill him ( the fact that he just accepted his death willingly), it begs the question why did the ajirans have to ‘warn’ him????

    help me out plz guys. thx

    • Thor

      It works as long as we presume that Jacob wanted to be killed (or sacrificed).

      And hey, Locke was meant to sacrifice himself too, but Ben always makes things difficult. Locke might have been a pawn, but that was what he wanted, he chose to off himself.

  • XmohaX

    Heeej another idea maybe far fetched but i think the losties will return back in time well go forward in time actualy to aproximatly a week after they crashed, normal timeline,… why you ask ?? 😀 well they will change everything don’t know how though 😀 and something else i thought of was maybe jacob isn’t dead, because i think and other people share this thought with me too, he died to quickly, maybe he transfered some of his energy or whatever to DUN DUN DUN,… Aaron and or Walt, maybe the flashbacks we saw of him going to the all the characters was not all this timeline but another one where he is trying to change thing or, prevent them from happening 😀 don’t know my head is hurting from all the ideas i’m getting 😀 too many to name and it’s been a while since i’ve seen the older seasons so i’ll check em back and oh yeah proof that the cabin is not jacob’s is an episode i like to call the man behind the curtain, 😀 remember that one i think somehow everything started from there cuz it is clear now that whatever the dude is called is not calling the shots but is winning the game, jacob just lost or didn’t, maybe he’ll only lose if Aaron dies, remember claire telling kate not to bring Aaron back, i really pff i’m starting to confuse myself now 😀 too many ideas that might not even be worth mentioning.
    But hej just wanna keep the debate alive :D, cuz i know i can’t live without lost 😀

  • I find it sad that Jack is only now being considered as not a hero.

    I finally saw why some dislike Kate in the finale.

    • Henry Holland

      How can I dislike a character like Kate when they don’t even bother with the rudiments of consistent story telling? “Ooooh, we need Kate to be the cold, brutal criminal that would blow Aldo’s knee to bits to get info!” sits side by side with “Oooooh, Kate’s around Jack, a man who has treated her like crap for 4 years, let’s watch her turn in to a spineless, wimpering, sobbing fool”, I get whiplash trying to figure out the character’s motivation from scene to scene. Oh, wait, there really isn’t any, it’s just whatever they need the characters to do to move the plot along.

  • horselover

    Two things: First, I like you bringing up that Locke describes his first meeting with the monster as a white light. Clearly that’s not what Eko sees, and in Exodus Locke seems to react as if the black smoke was something totally different and much more threatening than what he had seen before. I think the idea of their being a white and black monster, Jacob and his enemy, or something like that, is on the right track.

    Second, I think the person who knew of the tunnels when the Dharma houses were built was Horace. I don’t think he’s a mole for the others, but I think he is much like Richard, from the island and a friend of Jacob. (He seems to be ageless in ‘The Man Behind the Curtain.’) He is a mathematician so it’s possible he was the ‘clever fellow’ who predicted where the Island would be, but also he was in Locke’s dream building Jacob’s (or whoever’s) cabin. He seemed to know Richard well just after LaFleur and company arrived. He was present at Ben’s birth and brought him to the Island, in the same vain as Richard attempting to bring Locke.

    • Horace doesn’t seem to age. He seems to have an understanding with Richard.
      Is he Esau’s man, as Richard is Jacob’s?

  • hilsbells

    two things have struck me about this last episode.
    1. richard seemed truly surprised that locke came back to life. if so, and assuming richard has some experience with smoke monster/people manifestations, i don’t think that un-locke is smokey. i think richard would be able to tell the difference.
    2. given all the narnia references, all i could think with that final scene was how aslan went to his death, knowing that he would be reborn – more powerful then ever. so maybe the “adversary” figured out how to manipulate locke to take over his body, but perhaps jacob was a step ahead, priming ben to kill him in a way that he will be able to come back, stronger – hence the passive death scene.
    just some additional musings….

  • RandomZombie

    I just had a thought that gives me a little hope for the real Locke.
    If Walt’s visions are to be believed, he said that he saw Locke on a beach, in a suit, surrounded by people who wanted to hurt him.
    “Resurrected” not-Locke was never in a full suit, and there was never any indication that people wanted to hurt him. Maybe the vision that Walt had takes place after what we’ve seen so far. In season six, John, who is on a beach and in a suit, comes back to life, and for some reason the Others want to harm him.

    • KaiserSoze

      Perhaps Walt’s dream doesn’t differentiate between real Locke or NonLocke. Walt saw him on the beach surrounded by Bram, Illana and the other members of their group and they wanted to hurt Locke, that is NonLocke. He is in a suit in the box (although dead) and their mindset would be to hurt NonLocke who looks identical to dead Locke. Hence Walt’s vision.

  • Rooky

    Great article.
    However you are wrong about Bernard. He is NOT the only survior from the Tail section. The air hostest, Cindy I think, was alive and living with the Dharam and children. She came to Jack when he was in the cages, I think it was the episode when he got the tats.

    That makes me think what happened with her and the kids during the flash? Thoughts anyone.

    • Rooky

      EDIT: Firstly I clearly can’t spell Dharma right, but its not them she was with the Others I meant to say.

    • RandomZombie

      I said that he was the only tail section survivor left alive that joined the other 815ers. Cindy never made it to the mid-section camp, only Anna Lucia, Bernard, Libby, and Eko.
      As of now, all tail section survivors, other than Bernard, are either dead or have joined the Others.

      • Rooky

        Ah right sorry.
        What do you think happen to the Kids tho? I mean with all the time travel they must have spent 3 years on the Hydra Island where we last saw them.

  • Eve

    I absolutely love your write-up, RandomZombie. I’m really interested in your theory that Jacob and ? are really “monsters.” Supernatural beings. . . This has spawned an idea in me. While reading your article, I thought, wow! What if the whispers are Jacob and ? talking to each other while observing what’s going on on the island?! Jacob is bringing all these people to the island, observing their behavior and seeing how his influence may have affected their outcomes. All the while he and ? must be discussing their progress, no? Hence, the WHISPERS!

  • “Do you know what the variables in these equations are? Us, We’re the variables! People. We think, we reason, we make choices, We have free will.” Now we can really read it correctly..

  • chris

    Go back and rewatch the Mr. Eko death scene, knowing what we now know, it makes much more intriguing! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJBVEouoyhE

  • Illundiel

    just one question though…you start off with the “whatever happened, happened” mantra. but something i feel a lot of people have been avoiding is that jacob disproved this by stating that there could be a loophole. which would shove it out of the mantra, so we honestly can’t know if this is the same or if it is different(easu could have killed jacob 100 times already)

  • Ament

    Lots to think about, the one thing I keep reading in these blogs is how the “smoke monster” is manipulating the bodies of the fallen people of the island to influence the living. What about Walt? He hasn’t died, he’s been influencing shannon, and locke specifically.

    IMO, “Lost” isn’t done with Walt yet, they made to much of a big deal about the boy in the S1 and made too many “special” remarks about him. It would be disheartening to think a “special” boy was let go by a leader, who was only a pawn to jacob, without any closure on why he was special or why they just let him go. Why cameo Walt in S6 just to give us another “special” moment and his dream of Locke.

    I’m thinking heads up in S7, what goes around comes around. The show can’t write Walt the kid back into things but Walt the young adult might have a more important role. (Just came to me)What if Walt has jacob’s power to appear on and off island, makes more sense than a smoke monster taking over his appearance.

  • Andrew

    Just to throw this out there.

    I think that Jacob, the Mystery Man, and the smoke monster are all seperate things. You have Jacob on one side, and Mystery Man on the other (notice I didn’t say good and bad, although I think it makes more sense if Jacob’s the good guy). The smoke monster exists in the middle as a sort of judgement.

    It makes more sense to me, with this talk of rules and loopholes, that the Mystery Man (if indeed “bad”) can’t actually harm ANYONE directly, not just Jacob; he has to trick or tempt them into harming themselves.

    Example: Eko. If Mystery Man appeared as Yemi, Eko would respond as he would to his brother, i.e. “I’m not sorry for the choices I made because they helped you”. However, as the Yemi vision (?) says, “You speak to me as if I were your brother”, because he’s NOT Eko’s brother really, and then the smoke comes out and kills Eko because he didn’t repent.

    This type of manipulation seems to be a rule on the island, even in previous seasons – maybe as early as season 2? – where the Others don’t consider themselves responsible for actions they caused, however indirectly. As long as there’s that one degree of seperation between you and the misdeed, you can’t be blamed.

    Running out of steam on this train of thought for now but it makes a lot of sense to me. I feel like there would be other examples of this indirect meddling with people’s souls in the Bible and other places but I’m too lazy to remember them now. Thoughts?

    • I think the Temple is Esau’s place and Esau is the avatar of Anubis (just as Jacob is connected to Sobek), seen in the temple carvings as summoning the smoke monster, which is his pal.
      I think Esau has 3 smoke monsters, or Cerberus. This is how Locke and Christian are both manifested, simultaneously, maybe.
      Many times we have heard that the smoke monster is the temple’s security system: perhaps to protect Esau’s home?

      • DezziesOtherLifeBrotha

        I like where your going with the 3 monster possibility. And that the Temple’s security system are said monsters, thus if they are aligned with Lou Pole/?/NotLocke/Esau/Apep why would Richard and the Others have such a strong presence at the Temple (fixing young Benji, stowing away there during Keamy’s brutal reign on the island, etc.)? It seems obvious that the others are aligned with Jacob and not Lou PoleNotLocke. Wouldn’t the temple be Jacob’s then? Is the Temple neutral ground?

        One thing I want to make very clear: WE STILL HAVE NOT SEEN THE TEMPLE.

        We have seen the outer temple walls 3 times and only Richard going inside the temple walls with young Benji. (the other two were with Jin and French Connection, again going underneath the temple ‘when montand lost his arm’ and when NotLockEsauLou Pole and Ben were there with Sun for Ben’s judging…)

        We have seen under the temple, or smokey’s lair, the Smokey Shrine, complete with hieroglyphic carvings of smokey and anubis… we have seen another temple-like underground passageway that is closer to the barracks in Dharmaville, that is accessible by swimming under a stream, and is basically another shrine (to what?) and housed Jughead for decades.

        And we have seen Ben’s door to the mud toilet used to summon Smokey, which does not appear to be underground and most likely is in the same house (Ben/Horace’s) that is adjacent to the tunnels leading to the Jughead ‘shrine’ underground.

        But WE STILL HAVE NOT SEEN THHEEEEEE TEMPLE.

        What we have seen is a torn scrap of burlap with a Sobek looking statue woven in and A PYRAMID beside it……………TEMPLE ANYONE???

        Obviously they are setting up the big reveal for the final series. I’ve been combing these boards for some time, and I don’t think anyone is talking about that PYRAMID.

        Lastly, I think that the carving of the monster and Anubis is very important to unraveling the mysteries revolving around the relationship of Jacob>NotLockebutLouPolEsauApep?>Smokey. I do not thinking that Lou Pole and Smokey are one in the same.

        I also like the possibility of a white monster we have not seen yet, per Locke’s description of what he saw when he looked into “the eye of the island” (when we were seeing from the perspective of some monster like “thing” approaching Locke) that may be aligned with Jacob.

        • Very good points. Ever since the end of Season 3, I’ve been dying to see this damn temple!
          And, the “They’re coming?”
          Well, that’s very exciting to consider, too!
          A pantheon, perhaps?

  • Jennifer

    Soooooooooo bored of the Kate hate.

    First of all, in this episode, all of the “quadrangle” characters other than Sawyer were written poorly.

    Juliet – ditches her and Sawyer’s good life on the island to save people. So far, so good. But then, as soon as she sees James look at Kate once she does a 180 and lets Jack get away (to kill everyone on the island, guess it wasn’t that important to save them) before she’s even bothered discussing her (crappy, thin) motivation with James. Once she does, she doesn’t let him answer back. In the process of deciding she doesn’t care about saving anyone else on the island after all she also basically takes James off the sub to happiness, and decides that it doesn’t matter so much if time is erased and James never gets to have his redemption/not be Sawyer. I mean, really, if she loved him, she would know how important it was for him to have spent that time on the island and would have taken that into account instead of just thinking of her own break-up pain. (Except that Juliet, like Kate, is being written to further the plot in this episode. If Juliet were always needed to further a plot, I’m sure she’d get tiresome like Kate is to many fans in no time.)

    Jack – Even worse! Why are we not all hating Jack instead of Kate? Because first of all, it’s a terrible, selfish plan that he didn’t bother consulting anyone about. Not his fellow 815ers, not the Others, not the Dharma-ites, no one but himself. Then we get his “motivation” – he’s sad about Kate and him not working out. REALLY? If this were Kate’s motivation for anything, people would be calling for her head. But we’re letting it slide that Jack doesn’t care about Kate in handcuffs, Sawyer and the rest of the Losties without redemption, the likely death/danger to the Dharmaites and the Others – he just wants to not feel sad about a woman he could walk up to and have a heart-to-heart with if he felt like it.

    At least Kate is allowed to be convinced by an unselfish motive in this episode – reuniting Aaron with his mom. She knows she’ll be in jail forever if Jack’s plan works. And we’re still hating on Kate? REALLY?

    Hell, even Sawyer is more selfish than Kate in this episode, what with being happy to drink the orange juice over saving people’s lives. It’s not even logical for him not to want to stop Jack, because if the plan worked, he couldn’t be on the sub with Juliet – they would have never met.

    So yeah. Kate and Miles are the only ones who made any sense in the episode. Can we get some actual applause for Kate for once? I think she’s done nothing but good since she’s been back on the island, and the Kate hate is getting old. It’s not like she’s even done anything to obstruct Suliet, the most boring ship to ever sail.

    • Zonker

      Hear! Hear!

      Loved the Jacob/Ben/Locke part of the finale. Hated the Dharma ’77 half, for the very reasons you lay out: Jack & Juliet and to some extent Sawyer are just chess pieces moved around in ridiculous fashion by the writers in service of the plot. Maybe they can backfill motivations in Season 6 (perhaps Juliet has some secret knowledge we’ll see revealed in a future flashback), but my fear is the writers are just going to race along to their end-game, and leave behind all the dangling plot threads from previous seasons.

    • I totally agree. Juliet and Jack’s jealousy and desire for Kate, respectively, caused this madness. It’s not Kate’s fault, even though she does love Jack (and Sawyer) so she backs him, even though his plan is really dumb and insulting (“I’ve never felt so right about something, Kate…I just really want you to know that.” Like, their relationship, hmmm?). Kate is loyal and pretty badass, really.

      • Well, I don’t agree about Suliet. I love Suliet.

    • Lebowski Achiever

      Not to mention that she’s hot

  • Jennifer

    One more thing – how did Kate “come between” James and Juliet? Seems to me all she did was stay out of the way while James kept sneaking glances at her.

    It’s typical, however, to blame women for this sort of thing. Fact is, if anything came between James and Juliet it was James’ unresolved feelings for Kate combined with Juliet’s snap judgments and insecurities courtesy Darlton.

    Kate, what, did the inevitable “closure” talk by the river about why James leapt off the helicopter. That’s about it.

    • RandomZombie

      That was a bit of an exaggeration on my part. I’m a little biased against Kate – she just gets on my nerves.

      It seemed that every time James and Juliet were having a “moment,” Kate just happened to enter into the picture. And, no, this wasn’t Kate’s fault… but so much is.

      My blaming her had nothing to do with her being a woman. I’m a guy, and I’ll freely admit that, in general, we’re much bigger jerks than women.

      Kate just rubs me the wrong way.

      • 28 Minutes Later

        So you have no good reason to dislike the Kate character then. Just like the rest of the viewing audience.

        The fictional Kate Austen > Most peoples real lives.

        • My only problem with Kate was how she, like Jack and James, doesn’r share all her thoughts and feelings enough.
          Case in point, I thought that right before Jack was going to detonate the bomb, she would say, “Jack, wait, I’m pregnant!” That seemed a very Kate thing to do, to me.

        • RandomZombie

          Other than her desperate need to be a part of everything that goes on, patricide, teasing of Sawyer’s feelings when Jack wasn’t available, taking of Aaron, keeping Aaron from his grandmother, and abandonment of those on the island (including Sawyer, who jumped from the helicopter so that she could make it,) I have nothing against Kate.

          I’m just not a fan of her right now. It baffles my wife. She loves Kate.
          People do like Kate, and I’m fine with that. And I’d have no problem being proven wrong by having Kate do great and heroic things next season.

          • 28 Hours Later

            So, you’ve got a problem with the shows writers and not the Kate character then. Is that what your saying?

          • She didn’t tease James’s feelings. He pushed her away while he was dealing with the murder of Anthony Cooper. if he hadn’t been dealing with that, they would have stayed very, very close.

          • RandomZombie

            The character of Kate – her actions and her personality – exists completely at the whims of the show’s writers. I don’t know how the writers are intending to portray her character, but I don’t like her.

            It seems that if anyone says they don’t like Kate, they’re bombarded with replies wanting an explanation.
            I don’t like mustard. I don’t like asparagus. I don’t like American Idol. I don’t like Kate.

            If you like Kate: awesome! I don’t have a problem with that.
            But I don’t. A lot of people don’t. And we don’t have to.

  • jacobunny

    “I have no doubt that they would only sink Jack this low so that he can rise back to his former glory in the final season”

    Has it occured to you that by detonating that bomb Jack and Co. just saved the island (much like the fail-safe key) and everyone on it?
    The result might not be what he was expecting – the hatch never being built – but his instinct was right.
    The nuclear energy canceled the eletromagnetic leakage preventing the island destruction.
    Popular Mechanics explains it better… http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/research/4317374.html

  • Also, Ben…I think Ben is still the leader of the others, not Locke (or Not-Locke).
    So, it was Ben who made it so they could enter the Statue, even though No-Locke made it seem like he was just bringing him along. Because only the leader can enter, and Not-Locke was not the leader, and neither was Locke, probably, either.
    If that makes sense.
    Also, the lingering mystery of Juliet, and “She looks just like her.”
    Could this be the woman? Could this be Juliet??? Did she stay in the 70’s?
    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0903/DAdude/olderjulietin1977.jpg

  • bigy

    What if Charlie has already been resurrected? What if Jacob brought him back at some earlier point we haven’t seen yet, and he is currently working in the Looking Glass station?

  • SawyersFutureWife

    I’m in the ‘we’re being shown a third timeline’ camp. Jacob’s interactions with Kate and Sawyer as children struck me as different than with the Ajira 815er’s. They are the first two ‘flashbacks’ of the finale. They are the only two Jacob visits as children. And in both instances, agreement/promises are made that appear as if they would/could/should alter Kate and Sawyer ending up on 815.

    Without Jacob visiting them, we can infer that Kate would have been punished by her mother for stealing, instead of being shown mercy and agreeing not to steal anymore. And Sawyer’s pen was out of ink, so he would not have been still writing the letter when his Uncle appeared. Hence, he would never have had the ‘what’s done is done’ conversation and his subsequent promise not to finish the letter.

    Conversely, if Kate keeps her agreement with Jacob to not steal, she’s not involved in the bank robbery, the marshal doesn’t get a lead on her, so she never needs to flee to Australia on 815. If Sawyer keeps his promise to his Uncle, he never gets on 815 looking for vengeance on the man who conned his folks.

  • Michel

    ayid: I think the writers got the really ambiguous path with him to widen their possibilities. I’m sure they will have a lot of trouble juggling with so many characters in the final season, and they must have been considering their options of thinning the cast. This is not an easy choice, however, and they must have considered getting at least a candidate for a death to decide whether or not to kill him during the hiatus. Sayid got the short end of the stick. And they made this purposefully ambiguous. Jacob goes to see him, yes, and touches him, so there’s still hope. But he didn’t say any comforting words to him, and there’s the possibility that Jacob’s distraction was one of the causes of Nadia’s death (although I don’t think so, since she was killed by Widmore’s henchmen). And Sayid said nothing could save him. He probably meant ‘spiritually’, of course, but to arrive to a final judgment on Lost often means death. Pity, I really don’t want him to die.

    Kate: Kate is likable. You just happen not to. But Kate is really likable, and the writers have been working in this direction since she returned to the island. Letting Aaron go, saving little Ben, being a friend for Roger, staying out of whatever Juliet&LaFleur were having, being a voice of reason and virtue for Richard, and James… and Eloise… it has never been clear to me why so many people go out of their way to thrash talk about Jack and Kate. Maybe it has something to do with hating the popular kids, Schadenfreude, I don’t know. Yes, they’re quite flawed individuals, but with lots of virtues too. I think the only character more likable than Kate right now on the show is Richard Alpert, and that’s like summoning Gandhi. There must be a reason for all the Kate-hate and it’s obviously not a rational one, so I’m betting for Schadenfreude.

    Radzinsky: I don’t think Radzinsky was so bad either. What can we blame him for… being an a-hole? Given the circumstances, the guy probably thought it was more than justified. He thought his project and his community were all the time under external threats, and he did what he had to do. Did he kill anyone? Well, indirectly. But really, how could he ever believe in stopping the work without evidence? I can imagine Chang saying: “Hey Stuart, these newbies are from the future, they say you must stop erveything you’re doing.” Yeah, right. And he wanted to shoot Sayid because he thought he was an Hostiles. Maybe not a very compassionate thing to do, but we’d have to wonder what thing had the hostiles done to the Dharma folks, who were actually scared of them. And let’s not forget Amy’s husband. In the end, I like to think tat Radzinsky got really traumatized and filled with guilt, and that’s why he chose to be one of the button-pushers in the Swan. He was purging what he did, doing that map trying to understand everything in the end. And one day, he couldn’t take it anymore and shot himself. He was a loose cannon after all.

    Claire: Claire it’s still Not Claire. Claire is dead. And that’s all. Anti-Jacob got her form and memories, and that was it. No more Living Claire. What? That her spirit still can talk to some people, like Hurley. Yes. But Claire is no longer alive. She’s dead… at least, as dead as Locke is. There are differences between what Anti-Jacob does to impersonate dead people and what the ‘spirits’ of dead people do. Those who have appeared on the island in a corporeal way, not in a dream/vision way, are avatars of Anti-Jacob. Jacob validated Hurley’s communication with the dead, so the people Hurley and other talked to and the people we’ve been seeing walking around in the Island are different versions.

    To get this straight:

    – Claire in Kate’s dream telling her not to bring him back (who? Locke?) = True Claire
    – Claire in the cabin talking to Locke = Anti-Jacob

    – Yemi (and Ana-Lucia) in Eko’s dream telling him to look for the “question mark” = true Yemi and Ana-Lucia (remember her talking to Hurley in The Lie)
    – Yemi in the Australian girl’s near-death experience = True Yemi

    – Yemi walking near the plane and telling Eko he wasn’t his brother before he’s slaughtered by the monster = Anti-Jacob (he’s fairly distinguishable because his clothing is burned and stained, like the way the body got to the Island).

    – Christian in a suit and white shoes showing up in Jack’s visions in the LA hospital = True Christian

    -Christian walking around in the Island, hanging around in Locke’s cabin, changing clothes to a striped shirt buttoned all the way up, holding Aaron and ‘retrieving’ Claire, talking to Locke in the cabin and telling him to move the island, later telling him in the Wheel cavern to bring back the O6 and to die, later telling Sun to wait for John Locke and holding a picture of the Dharma recruits = ANTI-JACOB

    Christian in a suit and tennis shoes when Hurley saw him in the cabin’s rocking chair? Well, I don’t know, it could be either the real one abducted by the Anti-Jacob, doing whatever it makes him impersonate the dead, or the fake one already. But isn’t it funny that, even after fake Locke had changed his clothing, Jack was seeing his father in a suit an tennis shoes in LA?

    Just to let it clear: We know for sure that there’s some level of communication with the dead. Miles can download their memories post-mortem, and Hurley receives visitations from them. But AJ can use the dead bodies in the island to mimic their forms and obtain their memories. One last example on these two different kinds of “undead”…

    Alex threatening Ben = Anti-Jacob

    Charlie visiting Hurley and telling him Jack was “not supposed to raise him” (what if “him” isn’t Aaron, but Locke? raise him from the dead?) = True Charlie.

    Rose and Bernard: That part of the episode felt contrived and forced to me, but I do feel happy for them (although I wouldn’t live that kind of life). But you’re right, they can’t be Adam and Eve. The dates don’t match.

    Jack: Most people got what he wanted in the sense that he was looking for another chance with Kate, but I didn’t get that. He was just trying to never meet him in the first place, like Juliet felt about Sawyer. He just couldn’t stand another loss, and preferred to never meet her in the first place and let Destiny do the subsequent dirty work than to endure living in a world where he messed up to much his life that he was tormented by the death of both Locke and his father, and having lost Kate.
    I still remember the Jack who saved Charlie’s life. And the “I wouldn’t give up on John Locke” moment won me over.

    James: Agreed. James is going to start the next season royally pissed off. Watch again for a possible re-emergence of the Sawyer persona (and I certainly hope so, or we’re in for a few episodes stuck with the whiny-emo-James persona).

    Juliet: The same thing that was going on with Jack happened with Juliet… her parents divorced and she didn’t take it well, she married an a-hole, she saved her sister’s life only to never see her again in SIX years, she was separated from her life not only by distance but also by time (not less than 30 years!) and now she was watching the life she built around James being in danger of extinction. So she took the do-over road… because she felt she couldn’t endure another big loss. It got a total Ra’s al Ghul in Batman Begins vibe from both Jack and Juliet… they were wishing to have never met their loved ones, so they could be spared of their pain. Of course, Ra’s wife was dead, but you get my point.

    Richard: I don’t know when Richard got to the island, but he isn’t as old as Jacob and Anti-Jacob. He isn’t quite ‘in the loop’. He didn’t know about Ilana and Jacob’s counter-initiative against Anti-Jacob’s plan. And when Locke told him in 1954 that Jacob had sent him, he totally believed it and didn’t seem to have fact-checked it. I’m sorry to say it, but Richard Alpert got totally pawned.

    Ben: Poor Ben. Anti-Jacob touched his buttons, playing Ben’s issues of rejection of abandonment from a father figure… the same issues that made him kill his Roger. Redemption’s going to be a hard thing to get next season. I see him dying near the end of the sixth season. And he may have never understood Jacob’s sentence. “What about you?” maybe was supposed to mean: “What about you, Benjamin? There’s nothing wrong with you.” But Ben had a choice and he chose to stab “he who will save us all” in the chest. At least Jacob told him he had a choice, Jesus didn’t do that for Judas. But Ben has to die an epic death… not hanging himself from a tree (although, seeing what he did to Locke, it could be a sweet and poetic irony).

    The Real Locke: In fact, both my mother and my best friend said “Dead John Locke” when Bram opened the box. I don’t know how they knew, they just did. I want to see Locke again, in an alternate dimension, in the afterlife, anywhere. I don’t want him sobbing after being humiliated by the O5 to be my last memory of him. But, maybe that was the morale of the story… that’s how things turn out for some people in real life. Depressing morale. I hope Darlton will know that we will ponder on that idea for nine months and we will have learned our lesson when S6 starts.

    Ilana: I don’t think she was working for Jacob ‘per se’ when he visited her in Russia. She hadn’t seen him in a while and he didn’t give her an order, but asked her a favor. I think she was a lot more independent and rogue before Jacob formed his little C Team.

    Frank: Lapidus is not a confirmed candidate for anything. Ilana was just giving the possibility some thought. But Frank isn’t that great to be the next avatar of Jacob Almighty. Locke should be the next Jacob, and no one else. Frank is too apathetic to be a really big player next season.

    Jacob and Anti Jacob: We don’t know if the O815 and A316 flights were brought to the island by Jacob. Maybe his enemy has the power to lure people into the island too and he did it as part of his really elaborate plan to murder Jacob. Look at all the similarities between Ben and Locke’s lives. Early births, mother Emily, crappy lives, self-acquired senses of purpose and grandiosity, etc. It seems like the hand of Anti-Jacob to me. Or what, the guy waited for his chance and when the o815 crashed he thought: “this is my chance”? No, this plan has been going for many, many years. We don’t know “how much he’d gone through” ;).
    I don’t want Jacob to be dead either, but it’s a possibility. Maybe for his plan to succeed he had to die… to REALLY die… like Dumbledore in the HP books. He was a great character and could be the greatest addition to the cast of the show… but you know the Lost writers are as bold as you can get on TV. Maybe the killed him for good and we won’t see him alive again. I hope not, though.

    What I know for sure is that there are not TWO monsters. Nope. There is the black smoke monster, and that’s it. What Locke saw was a “really bright white light” because the monster can emit a really bright white light to scan people, like when it scanned Juliet in “Left Behind”.

    And the Anti-Jacob couldn’t have been Walt by the Dharma ditch grave. The Anti-Jacob can only take the form of those corpses who are on the island, and perhaps only those who haven’t been buried. That’s it. Walt was not only NOT in the Island at the time, but he was also very much alive. No, that Walt was probably… well, Walt. Walt appearing in places he was not supposed to be 😉 Besides, that Walt was advising John to prevent the arrival of the freighter people at all cost… but it was in the anti-Jacob’s best interest to allow the coming of Keamy’s team, since they were the ones who killed Alex, completing a step in Ben’s manipulation. Besides, the Anti-Jacob also needed Locke to die. Why save his life then?
    No, Walt was never the Anti-Jacob.

    • Michel

      Wow, that seemed a lot shorter on my Word. Oops.

      • Great analysis, though, Man. Thanks!

    • RandomZombie

      My wife loves Kate, and can’t understand why I don’t like her. I want to like Kate – I used to like her – but I just can’t do it anymore. It’s hard to pin down. She’s a meddler, for one thing. I’ve agreed with her in season five more than I have in a while: she gave Aaron back, which was the right thing to do; she saved ten year old Ben, which was good; and she (initially) thought that blowing up the bomb was crazy. She’s coming back around, but slowly.

      I don’t agree that Claire is dead. She was only seen once since her disappearance, and behaved strangely – and not in a way that you would think anti-Jacob would behave.
      All we know for a fact is that anti-Jacob was pretending to be Locke. As far as we know, that’s the only instance that we’ve seen him (though I seriously doubt it.)

      I still believe that Ben is good, and that he always had good intentions, even though others had to suffer for the greater good. I agree that his death, which feels inevitable, will be epic. I only wonder if his true nature – good or evil – becomes apparent before that happens.

      I wasn’t saying that Frank should be the next Jacob, but maybe to lead in Ben’s position. If Jacob is to be replaced, it should definitely be by Locke. The real Locke.

      We don’t KNOW that there is only one monster. The idea that anti-Jacob can only take the form of unburied corpses makes sense, but him being taller ghost Walt fits in with the manipulation of Locke and Ben, leading them down the path to the death of Jacob. Locke needed to die eventually, but that might not have been the right time.

      • Michel

        Yeah, I guess it’s very hard to pin down. Locke, for instance, was Season 1 and 2 biggest meddler. Or Sawyer, reading stealing private stuff lke Claire’s diary, or trying to break the marshall’s bag to find out Kate’s secret. Or Hurley, with his security survey in Season 1, or delivering messages from Charlie to jack, or commenting on most people’s problems. Or Libby, playing shrink or giving away boats for THE life-changing event in Des’ life. In fact, there’s a very fine line between “meddling” and “helping”. I’m simply not sure how meddling makes a reason.

        I also don’t see her indecisio between Jack and Sawyer as reason to hate her, but rather to pity her. It reflects the dichotomy in her life and in her way of seeing herself. She desires Jack because she wants to see herself as someone righteous and good to others, like her step-father was. But she fears that the worst mistakes in her life stemed from an egotistical drive, and she’s been driven away of society because of that… like Sawyer. But whatever mistakes she made on that stupid triangle, she didn’t seem comfortable doing them, and it seems it certainly had its emotional toll on her. Her speech to Sawyer at the end of “What Kate did” seemed quite cathartic to me.

        And I wouldn’t mention the assasination thing against anyone. Not on this show. It doesn’t seem like you hate Sayid, for instance.

        About Claire, we had plenty of clues pointing to her death. One of the readers in another page complained about the need of many fans to receive direct, straight, obvious answers, and their inability to get subtle information. Yes, Claire did behave like Anti-Jacob. In fact, she behaved as calm, collected and confident as Christian, and when Locke said “How do I protect the Island?” she and Christian shared exactly the same look. It’s probable that, along with the dead person’s memories, Anti-Jacob adopts some remnants of the person’s demeanor. But it’s minimal. Watch those scenes with all the dead people again.
        Besides, Ben and Richard seemed pretty sure that… well, that “Dead is Dead”. The number 1 possibility for all those CORPOREAL dead people walking around the Island? Anti-Jacob.

        I just hope they don’t do a huge turnaround with Ben for his death. It wouldn’t be fair with the character. He must stay true. Many times tv writers feel the urge to make the character do a big sacrifice or redemptive action before his death. Like what was done for Baltar in BSG. Wrong. It was predictable and boring. If Ben has to go down as the most tragic pawn or the biggest SOB in that Island, so be it… (I will always love him anyway).

        Yes, we don’t know how many monsters are in the show… and we don’t know if Santa exists or if the whole story is a dream in Vincent’s head (warning: schizophrenic dog on the loose).
        Occam’s razor. We’ve seen the monster half a dozen of times and never as a white creature, always as a black cloud. To make a last minute addition in season six would feel contrived. Anti-Jacob worked because it tied mysterious loose ends (all the undead thing and Jacob’s cabin) and was thematically predicted early in the show (the white&black motif). For the monster, all we have is Locke saying he saw a white light in only one episode, and we already got a perfectly good explanation for that when the monster scanned Juliet in the same season.

        About Walt, well, I think it’s safe to assume that Locke was victim manipulation in multiple fronts and multiple levels. He certainly lived the life of the ultimate pawn. Anti-Jacob NEEDS corpses that are on the island… and that’s why so much emphasis was made on Locke dying and return post-mortem to the Island (I wonder if Hawking was consciously helping AJ in his plan). Anti-Jacob couldn’t take the form of the living, off-island people. He wishes, since that probably would have made things much easier for him.

        • I’m pretty sure Ben is “bad.”
          Case in point…The Looking Glass. Just to cover up his lies, he orders Mikhail to kill two of his own people.
          Yup, it’s really ambiguous what kind of man Ben is…

  • kadenajack

    Its a small thing, but this has been bothering me. Many posts I’ve read assume the ship arriving at the island during the Jacob and other guy conversation on the beach was the Black Rock. I don’t see why everyone seems to be making that leap of logic. Given where the Black Rock ended up, in the middle of the island in the jungle, it seems more likely to me that the island materialized under it during one of its past “moves.” The ship arriving while Jacob and the other guy are chatting on the beach could be any sailing ship of the period.

    • RandomZombie

      If you look at the ship from “The Incident” and compare it to the painting of the Black Rock featured in “The Constant,” you can see that they’re very similar – with the exact same sail layout. It’s a natural assumption to make.

      I believed that the Black Rock ended up on the island just as you said – it was in the wrong place at the wrong time, and in popped the island. Apparently that’s wrong, though.

      • Maybe, passing through the electromagnetic bubble around the island creates the horrible weather that plagues all of these vessels. I guess, a little while after that Jacob-opener scene, a really bad storm came in behind the ship. Apparently, tsunami bad!

  • Mike

    Why are you so sprung on John Locke? He’s dead. John Locke is a sucker, that’s his story arc. Did you not see that? Lost is a character story dude and that is the character story of John Locke. He’s a sucker who gets manipulated. Deal with it.

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