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Wild Speculation – “The Variable”

By RandomZombie,

  Filed under: Lost Theories
  Comments: 75

Well, they didn’t give us long to enjoy the return of Daniel, did they?

First off: is Daniel dead?

I want to say no, but I’ll have to stick with probably, but maybe not.  He seems to have died, but that doesn’t necessarily mean anything.  However, Eloise did look very sad as she told Daniel that he should accept the job offered by Widmore, and when Widmore mentioned his sacrifices, her reply was “I had to send my son back to the island, knowing full well that…” before she was interrupted.  It could be that Daniel didn’t die – maybe the shooting would ruin any mother-son relationship that they could have, and that saddened her.  Or maybe he received the same treatment as the wounded Ben – maybe Jacob chose to heal Daniel, thus changing him from the person that he was.  Eloise could have caused the event that would have changed Daniel from the son that she knew.

But, as much as I hate to admit it, he’s probably dead.  Or will be soon.

Now on to variables, and the bigger question: is Daniel right?  Can the past be changed.

The short answer: no.  It can’t.

Daniel stated that people had free will and that they have the power to change their destinies.This is true, but there’s a catch.  Daniel, Jack, and the other future-ites have free real because they are existing in their own present – therefore they can make their own choices.  However, they are existing in the island’s, and therefore the world/universe’s, past.  So the decisions that they make in their present have already occurred in the universe’s past.  When 815 went down in 2004, their free-will-based decisions (though they hadn’t made them yet) had already been chosen, and their impact felt.  Basically, the free will of the time travelers had already shaped past events.

Whatever happened, happened – and their free will in the 1970s had cemented itself in the timeline, making the choices of the time-travelers a part of their destiny.  Their destiny was partially created by themselves.  Yeah, it’s complicated, and it might hurt the brain a little, but I’m convinced that this is the case.

Daniel gave some evidence in favor of this.  In spite of his insistence that he would not talk to young Charlotte, he does so anyway, because “I didn’t think I could change things, but maybe I can.”  By trying to change the past, he fulfilled his destiny, giving Charlotte all the fuel she needs to tell Daniel, in her own future, about the creepy guy who told her not to come back.

It seems that Jack might carry on with Daniel’s plan to stop the incident, thus performing the very actions that lead to the incident taking place.  Daniel was wrong: Jack and the gang were supposed to go back to 1977 – if not, why would the island have taken them?  Why not leave them in 2007 with Sun and Locke?  Jack was supposed to go back because his actions are necessary to set in motion the events that lead to the crash of 815.  It’s Daniel’s attempt to prevent these events that cause them to occur.

A few questions remain.  Why does Daniel believe that 1977 Eloise can get them back to when they were supposed to be?  When confronted by Locke and Jim, Richard didn’t seem to be familiar with time travel – why would Eloise be?  Daniel told Dr. Chang that the incident at the Swan would occur six hours from the time of their conversation.  How could he know this?  If he was stuck in the 1970s, with access to 1970s information, how could he know the time of the incident?  Maybe future Eloise does know a bit about time travel and somehow travelled back to her past to give Daniel some information.  But that seems a little far-fetched.

And now for the upcoming war.  Or, more specifically, the sides in this war.

I’m convinced that there are two sides to this war, and Ben, Eloise, and Widmore are all on the same side.

It was Widmore’s actions that brought Desmond to the island in the first place, and, in “Flashes Before Your Eyes,” Eloise ensured that Desmond kept to his destiny.  Widmore offered Daniel the job that would get him to the island, and Eloise encouraged Daniel to take it.  It also seemed that both Ben and Widmore wanted the Oceanic 6 to be on Ajira 316.  They weren’t working together, but their separate attempts got everyone (except maybe Hurley) onto the plane.

My guess is that they are on the same side, though they’re not very happy about it.  Ben and Widmore’s war could have been for control of the Others – for leadership in the real war to come.  Perhaps this scuffle is why the island chose Locke to be the new leader.  If Widmore returns to the island (and I believe that he might,) he and Ben won’t have to fight over who’s in charge, because the island has made it fairly clear that it’s John Locke.  Not that Ben and Charles will ever get along, though they will likely reluctantly work together for the greater good.

It seems that Ben and Charles Widmore have been working toward the same goals, while remaining willing to attack and kill each other’s operatives in the process.

The other side in this war?  The Children of Dharma.  Ilana, Bram, and others who were on flight 316.  Their goal just could be to make the island visible to their associates, who can then arrive so that the real war can begin!

I’m thinking that there’s a hierarchy to the Others that extends beyond our sight.  Ben was clearly in charge of the Others on the island, but was he truly the only one that could see or hear Jacob?  Eloise was off island and seemingly working on her own, though was still involved with business pertaining to the island.  There seems to be Others in various parts of the world – Jill was in the butcher shop in California, Greta and Bonnie (though secretly stationed in the Looking Glass) were thought to be in Canada.  There’s a lot to the Others that we haven’t seen.  If Jacob is the leader on the island, does he have an off-island counterpart?  Does he exist simultaneously on and off-island?

We subtly entered a new chapter in this episode.  Eloise Hawking confided to Penny, “For the first time in a long time, I don’t know what’s going to happen next.”  So far, someone had some kind of control – some knowledge of what’s really going on.  Now it seems that everything is up in the air.  Eloise has reached the point where her knowledge of events has run out, and now anything can happen.  Maybe “The Variable” refers to this new stage, where events have stopped being predetermined and the island can truly be won or lost.

From TVFrenzy:

  • bps

    If Daniel IS dead, what happens to the idea that Daniel was the guy with the camera in the comic-con video? I am convinced that was his voice, and if it was, then the video had to be shot “post incident” in light of these most recent events.

    • RandomZombie

      In the recent Lostpedia interview, Damon Lindelof said that the events in the videos were “sort of partially canon.”
      What happened in the video didn’t necessarily happen in the main storyline. The video was to give an impression of what the upcoming season was about, but ultimately (in my opinion) never actually happened.

      The interview is here: http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/The_Lostpedia_Interview:Carlton_Cuse_%26_Damon_Lindelof

      • lisa

        See, that’s what makes me crazy about this show. That stuff was put out there, we dissected it and ate it up, making it part of the history for us. Now we are told it is not really history. I, as well as many othre people took it as fact.

      • Hexonxonx

        Jeremy Davies told Jeff Jensen that only half of that video was shown and implied that the rest will be seen on the show. Maybe more was shot but they edited it down? I’m assuming that we’ll still see Chang lose his arm at some point, which was also hinted at again in the video from ComicCon.

        • Best. Show. Ever.

          I don’t remember seeing anything about Jeremy Davies talking to Jeff Jensen (did I miss it in one of his columns?). Where can I find this?

  • “Daniel gave some evidence in favor of this. In spite of his insistence that he would not talk to young Charlotte, he does so anyway, because “I didn’t think I could change things, but maybe I can.” By trying to change the past, he fulfilled his destiny, giving Charlotte all the fuel she needs to tell Daniel, in her own future, about the creepy guy who told her not to come back.”

    Personally…I think Charlotte may have been a variable, here.
    The show slyly did not reveal what Daniel said to her, and I believe it is different from what he told her “before.”

    • RandomZombie

      Just before the lines that I quoted, Daniel says “I tried to avoid telling you this.”
      What else was he trying to avoid telling her other than to not return to the island?

      • JJStrange

        That was it. He told himself over and over when Sawyer and Juliet found him after Charlotte’s death…”im not gonna do it, im not gonna tell her” something to that effect…so I think he meant, he tried to avoid coming back to her and telling her to leave the island and never come back…but he told her anyway bc he THOUGHT he could change things…but to me, the mere fact that HE TELLS CHARLOTTE (the very thing he swore to himself not to say)proves that WHH and he didn’t change anything.

        • I agree that it really looks like WHH, and yeah it is unlikely that they will show that scene from a different angle where we hear exactly what he tells her…but considering the recaps keeps subtley changing things like dialogue…and in the 316 episode the beginning and the ending of the episode have different dialogue for the same scene…and considering there is something called “course correction” at all (like the many deaths of Charlie)…well…well…well?

      • hk

        Actually he did NOT tell her not to come back. The only thing he was saying was “you and your mummy – you gonna have to leave.”

        • Shaun

          That’s right, hk… In my mind, it’s one of those subtle changes that might just prove that events can be changed and in fact ARE being changed… You could throw this one in there with the changed picture frames in the woman’s house the first time we ever met Miles, and Charlie’s originally being unable to swim, then suddenly being a swim champ (and doing a fine job of getting down to the Looking Glass). Even the faux pas of when Charlotte was born could, conceivably, be explained by this.

          Of course, Charlotte’s memory of a childhood event from 30 years ago, as she’s moments away from dying, could be faulty.

  • Victor Utomo

    About the comic-con video, Damon did say that it was “sort of canon”. Maybe the video is canon, but the person recording it wasn’t.
    Maybe at the time when they shot the comic-con video, they hadn’t decide which character to use in the video, so they used Jeremy Davies’ voice.
    Maybe in the show, the filming of the video will happen, but it will be recorded by another person. Miles, maybe? Who knows?

  • GeorgeM4

    Am I alone in thinking that the reason Eloise knew so much was from reading Daniel’s notebook? She gave him his own notebook as a present at his graduation lunch which she probably got from him after she shot him.

    Also, keep in mind that the Lost producers have stated that there cannot be a sequel (or words to that effect). Changing history so that the time-loop never happened could be the reason for that. The “whatever happened, happened” mantra may be well and true, but there are faint indications that there are some exceptions, like Desmond.

    • icyone

      Jack and Kate are still there, and I bet they tell Eloise everything that happens.

      • Heidi

        agree with Jack and Kate telling Eloise and she tells them where to go and what to do. Next week preview has them in the basement of the temple, no? Is it possible that Doctor Jack can keep Daniel from dying? That could be why Hawking sent him back.

    • Alaine

      I thought the journal Eloise gave Daniel looked brand new. I don’t believe the journal was written in yet. I think Eloise gave Daniel the journal because she knew Daniel would document all of his findings and experiments. Which of course would be needed in the future.

      • JJStrange

        I agree. It was a brend NEW journal…definitely the journal he uses to document all of his findings, etc..but new to him at that point nonetheless.

        • shieldwolf

          Being a new journal doesn’t contradict GeorgeM4’s assertion – which I agree with – which is that Daniel died with his Journal in his pocket. Eloise now has it and will read and will become an expert in time travel and everything that Daniel wrote in it – which is why she knows so much about what is going to happen, AND why she now no longer knows what is going to happen (since it only goes up to the point that Daniel is killed – obviously).

          She bought Daniel a BRAND NEW journal as a graduation present knowing that she HAD to – but this is really the same journal, 15 years or so newer than the one she got off of Daniel’s body.

          • Yep, she got it off his body, so later she’d know which brand to buy (and, that he’d use it and treasure it)!

    • Which also explains why she doesn’t have any more knowledge of the future when she’s talking to Penny.

      • Because the journal ran out of info because Dan is Dead.

      • cpoole2342

        I believe Hawking’s knowledge of future events dates back to whatever interactions she will have with Jack and Kate, along with Daniel’s journal entries/equations. Since 1977 she has known that she killed Daniel and that in 2008 she will tell Jack and the O6 to get on Ajira Flight 316, because the 2008 version of Jack and Kate tell her that is what happened/ how they got back.

        That would be interesting because then where does the information regarding 316 originate? Guess it would be a Jinn, then…

        So 2008 Hawking’s future knowledge ends with Jack and Co. boarding Ajira 316, and thus her comment to Penelope in the hospital.

  • bps

    I find it hard to believe that they (D and C) would pay so much attention to detail over the past 5 seasons and then negate the fact that that was Jeremy Davie’s voice on the comic-con video. It would be a big blunder to ignore that when ALL Lost fans know that its him.

    My theory is that 1) The island will heal him alone, or 2) Richard and Ellie will take him to the temple.

    While that’s taking place Jack and Kate will try to keep Daniel’s plans alive, but in the end will be the ones responsible for the whole incident.

    • HurleyMadeCash.com

      Yeah except that it’s not a fact that the voice belongs to Davies. Personally I don’t think it sounds like him at all. If you listen again really hard, the voice sounds younger and almost has a California accent.

      • horselover

        If I remember right, most of the postings of that video just said something about “a familiar voice” or such. Most people came to the conclusion that it was Faraday on their own. It really did sound like him.

      • Shaun

        I have never heard of a “California accent” before… What does that sound like?

        Anyhow, it certainly sounded like Daniel/Davies to me.

        While I agree wtih bps that it would be a huge blunder to ignore that, the video probably hasn’t been seen by the majority of people who simply watch the show. Not to mention, would it be any bigger of a mistake than the Charlotte in 1974 debacle? Or how WAAAALT knew about the name “Jeremy Benthem,” or even Miles mentioning Ben’s turning of the donkey wheel when he (as far as I can tell) Miles shouldn’t even know about the donkey wheel, let alone Ben ever turning it?

        Sorry to say it, but it wouldn’t be the first mistake Darlton’s made this season (unless all this stuff will get explained at some point?).

  • Loucester

    Well, keep in mind that D&C have also made other blunders. Charlotte shouldn’t even be alive yet in 1977, given that she said she was born in 1979. And Ethan is most definitely NOT 27 in the first couple of seasons, so his being Amy’s son makes no sense. Then there’s Rousseau’s French in her recorded message, which wasn’t authentic. And there have been other gaffes as well. As such, I’m not surprised they’d create an inconsistency regarding Daniel’s voice.

    Don’t get me wrong, I’m not nitpicking or knocking the writers, who continue to amaze me week after week. I’m just saying that it’s not like this is the first time they screwed up.

    • lull89

      Don’t forget that we have seen Ethan off the island, and we know time passes differently on and off the island. I think the reason he looks older than 27 is due to all the time he spent helping Richard and co.

    • Shaun

      Ah… I see somebody me to this very point. 🙂 That’s not even including the woman behind Sun (which Darlton claimed totally ignorance about in a recent interview I read)!

  • Loucester

    Consider this:

    William Maopther (Ethan) is 43 years old, playing a 27-year-old.

    Rebecca Mader (Charlotte) is 30 years old, playing a woman who thinks she’s 30 but is apparently more like 37.

    So in other words…Charlotte is supposed to be 10 years older than Ethan! How the heck is that possible, given their appearances? Either she ages amazingly (and is 7 years older than she knows) and he ages very poorly…or else this was a blatant mistake.

    • Appearances can be deceiving. I’m 30, and I look forty. Mostly because Lost has aged me so quickly.

    • Amberlina42

      I think it was a mistake. If I remeber right, Damon and Carlton blamed Mader and she called them doo doo heads or somthing like that.

      • Shaun

        That’s about right… After Ms. Mader called them on it, Darlton backpedalled and said they’d “mis-remembered” the whole thing and blamed it on Mader by mistake. Kind of humorous, really, but I do wonder how Darlton screwed that one up.

  • JJStrange

    Did anyone notice? On the cover of the Wired Mag with the superhero…”The end of cancer as we know it, page 108″ (the numbers, anyone?) I thought that was very interesting…and telling…Where are Adam & Eve i.e Rose and Bernard? (well that’s who I think A&E are anyways)

    Also, about the comic con vid everyone keeps talking about..in D&C’s recent interview with Lostpedia they said those videos are PART canon, PART promotional items (not those exact words) So we can’t assume Darlton made a mistake here…and who knows…Maybe Richard will carry him to the temple and get him healed *lol that would be funny. Maybe there’s still hope for him (daniel) yet.
    All in all, solid solid ep!

  • Heidi

    “Now on to variables, and the bigger question: is Daniel right? Can the past be changed. The short answer: no. It can’t. ”

    From the previous Miles and Hurley discussion: The people from the future who are now in the past are actually in their own present. They can do anything and they can die. Daniel repeated that in The Variable and now it appears he is dead. Hawking sent Jack back to the island because she is hoping she can change something. Something that needs to be changed or “God help us all”……

    • I took it as she wants to keep time on its proper course or “God help us all.” Everything she did with Daniel seemed aim at maintaining the timeline.

    • Well, the thing is…when you change time…you change the universe.
      So, it doesn’t seem like ANYTHING’s changed. It seems like that’s how it’s always been.
      Was Charlie EVER going to die a certain way? Did Desmond always receive those flashes and save him until he mastered the Looking Glass (in which case…”who” sent the flashes”?)?
      Here’s the confusing part…you can change time…but the writers promised not to invalidate what we’ve already seen…
      …so what we get to watch is the way it plays out in the FINAL iteration.
      Maybe.

  • Jack and Kate stopping the plane crash doesn’t make sense because the ones stopping it are the ones on it. So if they stop it then they don’t crash, which means they don’t have the opportunity to stop it. Its impossible. Maybe thats why Faraday can stop it, because he could be there on the island whether or not the plane crashed there. I think Jack and Kate will still try to stop it but won’t succeed and the island will heal Faraday like it did Ben and he becomes the new leader.

    • Shaun

      You’ve never watched Star Trek, have you? 🙂

      If you truly CAN change the future, as Jack and Kate will attempt to do, then the plane never crashes, it lands at LAX, and they never go back to 1977. They disappear from that timeline, and they go on with their lives as before. In Kate’s case, of course, that means going to JAIL so I’m not sure why she’d want to stop it all. Of course, maybe she’ll be a turncoat and sabotage Jack’s attempt to sabotage the Swan (and therefore keeping the current/past timeline intact). Wouldn’t THAT be something?

      Getting back to Star Trek, that’s sort of what’s going to happen, apparently, in the new movie coming out next week.

      Basically, a new timeline will be created, doing away most of what we remember from the old TV show for the sake of the new movies… If Old Man Spock goes back in time to change things, he’s basically doing the same thing you’re questioning/wondering about here. That’s the paradox of time travel.

      All that said, I have pretty much no interest in the new Star Trek movie. 🙂 I don’t want to see new actors playing the old, classic roles.

    • Shaun

      Oh, and I don’t think Daniel’s going to die either, or at least not stay dead for long. I agree with what Doc Jensen had to say yesterday about all that… We’re not done with Daniel. The new leader though? Hmm… What if he’s Jacob? I’m not so certain about that, but it has been speculated elsewhere.

  • m-lost

    what if Daniel is healed by JACOB and becomes the other man with him in the Cabin?

  • Unbeliever

    The other man in the rocking chair was Christian Shepard.

    Faraday was going to blow up the H-Bomb in the past. He would nuke the Island’s energy source therefore creating a new future. Unfortunately his Mom never told him that her past self would be shooting him through the chest before he had the chance. Now Jack and the Losties have the opportunity to pick up where Faraday left off. The Statue gets blown up in the explosion and the energy released sends the Losties back to the present.

    • The statue is already gone… I don’t think it exists in the 70s.

  • Ed Holden

    “I’m not allowed to have candy before dinner.”

    • JJStrange

      lol I love that line…”I’m not allowed to have chocolate before dinnah” lol…gets me every time…

  • If they can change the past paradox arises. If they prevent the plane from crashing then they never go back in time to prevent the plane from crashing and thus the plane crashes. This can only be explained away by having multiple time lines and when something changes one another timeline is created while the original stays the same.

    Based on comments from Damon and Carlton I don’t think the “multiple timeline” theory will be used. Not only will it be extremely confusing but they have stated that they want to avoid paradox

    • To expand on the free will versus this has already happened, people do have free will, but that is already accounted for in what has happened. Say I am trying to decide whether the number at the end of this post will be 1 or 7. I have free will to decide that, but whatever I choose is what I choose. The free will of people is already accounted for in the past.

      This is kind of a paradox because while people have free will they can’t change time. This is because all of the information and factors that contribute to their decisions led to that decision and unless you change the inputs the outputs won’t change. So unless you can go back and change history history won’t change. Since you can’t change the past since it already happened you can’t change the past.

      To use an illustration – in getting the O6 back to the island Ben had to go through a lot of stuff. One could say that since the past has already happened he could have just sat on the beach and the O6 would have gotten back anyway. However with the information Ben had the only choice he could make was to try to get them back. His free will created the present, which created the past, both of which creates the future. If Ben had chosen to not do what he did and the O6 didn’t get back to the island history would have been different, but he did and that is how it is.

      Free will exists, but it is also an illusion. Our brains are basically giant computers and if you give the same inputs with the same parameters the output will be the same.

      • Yes, I agree.
        It’s like Evolution vs. Creationism
        Both can be true.
        In Free Will vs. Determinism
        Both can be true
        It is not enough to understand the world Inside,
        It is not enough to understand the world Outside,
        It is more than enough to understand that they are the Same.

  • LOST With Lyndsey

    “I’m convinced that there are two sides to this war, and Ben, Eloise, and Widmore are all on the same side.”

    I agree with this on so many levels, BUT what are we to make of Ben and Charles moments of unadulterated hatred towards one another? All that killing one another’s children and such? I’m kind of leaning towards Ben sort of being the pawn in Ellie and Widmore’s game.
    My other niggling discontent is the idea that we may not yet be familiar with who the ‘other’ side actually is…
    Doesn’t it seem somewhat late to be introduced to the ‘real’ enemy (be it Team Ilanna or otherwise…)
    Still, I think you are def. on to something with that…

    • RandomZombie

      The clashes between Ben and Charles seem more personal than anything. Charles wants back what he believes belongs to him, and Ben wants to keep what he feels he rightfully acquired. Both of their end goals are the same, what’s up for grabs is who gets to lead the charge to victory. That argument may be pointless now, seeing that the island has chosen Locke as the new leader.
      Eloise may be forced to work with these men, hating Charles because of their past and disliking Ben on general principle – but having to tolerate him because he was apparently chosen by the island. She’ll calmly reset the bricks into their proper places while the other two recklessly tussle and knock them down.

      As for the ‘other’ side – if they are involved with Dharma, then they aren’t being introduced late in the game. They’ve been around since the Swan hatch was opened. These are just some new faces.

  • spacebender

    “Daniel gave some evidence in favor of this. In spite of his insistence that he would not talk to young Charlotte, he does so anyway, because “I didn’t think I could change things, but maybe I can.” By trying to change the past, he fulfilled his destiny, giving Charlotte all the fuel she needs to tell Daniel, in her own future, about the creepy guy who told her not to come back.”

    There is a slight twist, though. The first time it was, “When I was little, living here, there was this man… a crazy man, he really scared me. And he told me that I had to leave the island and never ever come back. He told me that if I came back I would die.” [Charlotte to Daniel in “This Place Is Death”].

    The second time around, it’s: “Dr. Chang is going to ask a bunch of people to get on the submarine, and leave the Island. When he does, you and your mommy, you’re going to have to leave, in case what I do doesn’t work; you cannot be here, you have to leave. I tried to avoid telling you this, I didn’t think I could change things, but maybe I can”.

    But this time around he doesn’t say that she could never come back, nor that if she came back she would die. Perhaps it’s not an important difference, but it is a slight “variation” nonetheless that I found rather interesting.

    • He is still talking to her as the camera shifts them into the background. That’s why I think the writers are being sly.

    • mindstorm

      I second that.

      Also, I don’t think Daniel is dead or he couldn’t have shot the Comic Con video with Dr. Chang.

  • loony

    “If they prevent the plane from crashing then they never go back in time to prevent the plane from crashing and thus the plane crashes.”

    omfg

    • I think my brain is crashing if I can’t stop it in the past.

      • Doos

        Turtles. All the way down.

  • spinflip

    I think an important point is that Faraday really went a bit crazy, especially after Charlotte’s death. From a physicist he has become kind of a philosopher believing in free will. It’s that whole ‘man of science vs. man of faith’ thing again and I place by bet on the science guys winning that one. Only now, Jack is ironically on the side of faith. 🙂

  • johr77

    I have i thought,
    Eloise, for her whole life has tried to get Dan to figure out the things that she needed to know in 1977 to fix everything, so she give him a journal and pushes him hard from childhood to figure it out, this is why for the first time she don’t know whats going to happen…. she just sent him back with what she needed in 1977….JACK!!!!!

  • IwantMySonBack

    Desmond is definitely the variable.
    1. Daniel changes history by talking to Desmond in the hatch and telling him to go to his mother (Eloise) giving Desmond a new memory.
    2. Desmond goes to meet Eloise in LA, brings Penny and Charlie with him.
    3. Ben goes to shoot Penny, but can’t and ends up shooting Desmond.
    4. Desmond ends up the hospital, Eloise isn’t sure if he’ll make it or not.

    So, if none of that was supposed to happen, Eloise wouldn’t know the outcome. She doesn’t know because Daniel changed things with Desmond. Maybe seeing that things can be changed, Eloise sends Jack back even though he wasn’t supposed to be in 1977 (Daniel tells him this) so he can save Daniel when he is shot…Just a hunch.

    • Dharma Adept

      “So, if none of that was supposed to happen, Eloise wouldn’t know the outcome. She doesn’t know because Daniel changed things with Desmond. Maybe seeing that things can be changed, Eloise sends Jack back even though he wasn’t supposed to be in 1977 (Daniel tells him this) so he can save Daniel when he is shot…Just a hunch.”

      what was interesting about this was the parallels between the 1977 timeline and the present. i think Ellie was unsure if Desmond was going to die. when he didn’t, it meant that Daniel was unsuccessful in changing his destiny, so that his death did indeed happen.

      and, to build on, IWant’s theory, Daniel is (was) both a variable and a constant. He’s a variable because he jumps back and forth between timelines, but he’s a constant because his actions only ultimately result in the fate which has always been his. i could be wrong, but i dont think Daniel is coming back. that would kind of be like cheating, and would also lessen the impact of Ellie’s big reveal.

    • RandomZombie

      I do believe that Desmond is special, as Daniel has said. It’s no coincidence that the story of his survival is shown in an episode featuring Daniel and titled “The Variable.”
      I don’t believe that his unique position will be used in the past, however, but in the “present” of 2007. Fate will come into play in the upcoming struggle, and Desmond will be the wild card – with him in the mix, anything could happen.

  • Dale

    I remember something in the past seasons when Eloise said that, even if you stopped an event from happening at that time, it wouldn’t matter because the universe has a way o course-correcting things.

    I feel that Ilana and Bram are there because they too are suppose to be there. With them mentioning the statue, obviously they are not Dharma but another set of Others that are off the island.

  • 4XLOST

    So do the children of Dhama include Sun? It appears so and suggests a tie in to Paik Industries and Dharma.

  • NeilsSpirit

    Daniel knows when “The Incident” at the Swan location took place because he has his journal which contains information about the DHARMA Initiative, including the time / location of The Incident. To that end, he apparently wanted Eloise to lead him to Jughead. While he has no intention of using the hydrogen bomb in it’s complete form, he probably wants to use the conventional detonator which compresses the fissionable material that generates at atomic explosion. Indeed, it’s possible that it is used eventually; it becomes the failsafe that is eventually used by Desmond in Live Together, Die Alone.

    Hawking’s statement that she doesn’t know what is going to happen may actually imply she was affected like Desmond was, with Flashes Before Her Eyes. Meeting up with Charles Widmore in the future-present may have erased that ability, as he is certainly capable of being her Constant.

  • Dolce

    Great recap.

  • loony

    its so mind twisting…

    that i can imagine my self watching the
    last season just like Faraday is watching the fake plane crash on tv.

    “My Wife”: Loony? Why are you so upset ???

    “Loony”: I Dont know…

    lol

  • Uncle Beaver

    Hey, I have a question.

    You said Ben, Locke, Sun, and the rest of the Ajira survivors are back in 2007. But that flight supposedly took off 3 years after the Oceanic Six were rescued. The O6 were rescued in the beginning of 2005, so three years later would be… 2008. Right?

    I know Sawyer, Juliet, and the rest “flashed” to 1974 and 3 years later they are living in 1977. I know in a few scenes, they say “30 years earlier”, which would make the “current time” 2007, so…

    Did the O6 “flash” in time from 2008 back to 2007?
    Are they in 2007 or 2008?
    Are the writers just “estimating” when they say “30 years earlier”
    Does it really matter that I’m asking these questions?

    • Uncle Beaver

      Oh, by the way. They aren’t going to CHANGE the past. They are going to FULFILL and solidify their destiny by going back into the past. Anything that is going to happen at “The Swan” is going to happen and has already happened.

      “You can’t change the past”.

    • Uncle Beaver

      Whoops. What I meant to ask was:

      “Did the AJIRA SURVIVORS ‘flash’ in time from 2008 back to 2007?”

  • CAStroupe

    I have been trying to wrap my mind around all of this so please forgive me if I sound completely stupid (also this is my first post but I am an avid reader). I get what alot of you are saying about not changing the past BUT since this is our Losties present aren’t they trying to change THEIR FUTURE? Maybe I am off the wall here but the way Daniel said “they weren’t supposed to be there” made me think they were dropped in the wrong place/time and that was another “change in the past” or something like that (either that or he was implying that all their lives were supposed to turn to shit after they left the island?). I just got the feeling that them being there (in 1977) is a change from what actually originally happened?

  • elainencarolina

    “Hawking sent Jack back to the island because she is hoping she can change something. Something that needs to be changed or “God help us all”……”

    Or, if as suspected, the Losties actually CAUSE the incident, then back so things stay the same or “God help us all.”

    • Uncle Beaver

      One thing the story has yet to even HINT at is: Why did the Oceanic Six HAVE to go back to The Island? What mystical, metaphysical, religious or scientific reason is so important that THESE PEOPLE have to go back there, or “God help us all”?

      • pookigus

        Everything in the story until this point will be tied neatly(or not)into a bow – sealing the loops in time – or else the end of the world as we know it. That’s why they had to go back. Season five will mostly likely end with all our characters new and old reunited in the future choosing sides in the coming war for control of the island -after all the time traveling messes have been cleaned up . Then season six can play out character driven without the writers having to worry about time paradoxes.

        • Uncle Beaver

          Cool idea !!